Responsibility for Asbestos

[C p]

Hello,

I was hoping to get some advice from the more knowledgeable among you about a problem that we have encountered during our renovation project.

We are renovating a 1940s house and have uncovered asbestos cement tiles above the pvc soffit. The roof was renewed in 2012 (long before we bought the house) but absolutely no mention was made of asbestos being present prior to our purchase.

Here is where it gets interesting. HSE are now involved and have shut the site down until the asbestos is removed by an approved contractor. This is going to be expensive and will possibly impact on the future value of our house as the work is only to remove loose debris leaving the intact board in place.

I have had a look through the regulations and it looks like the roofing contractor had a duty to inform the home owner that asbestos was present. We then should have been told as potential purchasers of the house. I enjoy diy and could have been up there merrily sawing away at asbestos completely oblivious.

I feel like we have been left holding the baby and with all the hassle and expense to rectify a problem which we didn't cause.

Any thoughts/ opinions would be appreciated.

Many thanks

 

[John D v2.0]

That's an annoying situation.
According to HSE the safest place for any existing asbestos is intact and sealed in place. Asbestos cement board is usually a DIY removal with precautions, so there must be some other issue there.
Safest thing is get it removed and leave the rest there safely. Often roofing contractors have no idea what they're sawing through either, maybe they were just told by the boss to replace the roof and didn't question the material

And good luck finding out who did "cause" the problem, I think some people have successfully sued the employers or government in the past, but only where it caused heath issues. The problem is really that it was thought a wonderful material so they thought they were doing a great job not causing a problem.

 

[wessex101]

I do not understand what you mean by "asbestos cement tiles above the pvc soffit" are you saying some old roof tiles have fallen into the gap above the soffit OR the pvc soffit has been fixed over the existing asbestos cement soffit. If it is the old soffit board, that must be present on hundreds of thousands of properties and is a very low risk, I would think very few contractors who do pvc soffits would bother to mention it and most homeowners are not aware what it is.

Either way did you get the "tiles" tested? What was the result...Chrysotile by any chance? As mentioned above asbestos cement is not normally a licensable job so I do not understand why the HSE is involved, who called them in?

 

[C p]

I have had an asbestos survey carried out. Numerous samples were taken and have come back as Chrysotile.

It is as you say, new pvc was fitted over the old Chrysotile soffit which isn’t a problem. However quite a bit of asbestos cement, broken tiles etc were left behind by the roofing contractor and some have found their way into the garden too.

HSE were out to inspect scaffolding and subsequently raised the issue. The way they refer to it you would think it was nuclear waste. The up shot is a licensed removal must take place.

I asked the surveyor and he stated that the roofing contractor should have had an asbestos survey done and should have notified the home owner so that they didnt disturb or cut into the asbestos.

This is all new and quite baffling to me hence why I’m on here looking for information.

Thanks

 

[John D v2.0]

far be it from me to question the HSE, but their web site has all the information you need http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/ . For example see page 6 of this:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a0.pdf
When I follow that flow chart

This would seem the relevant task sheet which is really clear about the procedure
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a11.pdf

 

[^woody^]

Did the HSE say anything about your lack of a CDM Construction Phase Plan? Risk assessments and method statements? Are they going to prosecute?

Have you appointed a principle designer? Or are you accepting that responsibility/liability?

Are you insured for the potential claims from the workers for exposure as you have not followed CDM? They have six years to claim.

For clarity, chrysotile is non notifiable and non licensed removal, so anyone with an hour's training can bag it and remove it. Or you as the homeowner can do it yourself with no training and no HSE involvement.

 

[noseall]

you as the homeowner can do it yourself with no training and no HSE involvement.

Bliss.

 

[tomfe]

Wohhhh hang on a minute.

H&S on a domestic site! That's something I have never seen.

 

[Lower]

Unfortunately, the responsibility to know that there is asbestos present falls on the property owner. You can't expect the trades to automatically know what is asbestos and what isn't.

Just because there's been work done historically doesn't absolve you of that responsibility.

 

[Lower]

Did the HSE say anything about your lack of a CDM Construction Phase Plan? Risk assessments and method statements? Are they going to prosecute?

Have you appointed a principle designer? Or are you accepting that responsibility/liability?

Are you insured for the potential claims from the workers for exposure as you have not followed CDM? They have six years to claim.

For clarity, chrysotile is non notifiable and non licensed removal, so anyone with an hour's training can bag it and remove it. Or you as the homeowner can do it yourself with no training and no HSE involvement.

Domestic client guidance

'If you are having work done on your own home, or the home of a family member, and it is not in connection with a business, you will be a domestic client. The only responsibility a domestic client has under CDM 2015 is to appoint a principal designer and a principal contractor when there is more than one contractor. However, if you do not do this, (as is common practice) your duties as a domestic client are automatically transferred to the contractor or principal contractor.'

Why scaremonger with something that isn't relevent?

 

[wessex101]

I have had an asbestos survey carried out. Numerous samples were taken and have come back as Chrysotile.

It is as you say, new pvc was fitted over the old Chrysotile soffit which isn’t a problem. However quite a bit of asbestos cement, broken tiles etc were left behind by the roofing contractor and some have found their way into the garden too.

HSE were out to inspect scaffolding and subsequently raised the issue. The way they refer to it you would think it was nuclear waste. The up shot is a licensed removal must take place.

I asked the surveyor and he stated that the roofing contractor should have had an asbestos survey done and should have notified the home owner so that they didnt disturb or cut into the asbestos.

This is all new and quite baffling to me hence why I’m on here looking for information.

Thanks

I can only assume that as it is broken fragments HSE have taken the view that there is a high risk of fibre release so needs to be removed properly. I still do not think it is licensable work but sometimes you can only get a licensed contractor to touch damaged asbestos cement as regular contractors' wont be covered by their public and employers' insurance. Also trying to get a regular contractor to try and write a coherent risk assessment and method statement for anything to do with asbestos is rather like waiting for Father Christmas to pop down your chimney on Christmas Eve.

Very bad luck HSE visited. Any other time you could have donned the fancy face mask and paper overalls, hired the special hoover and just bagged up all the debris and saved yourself a tidy sum of money.

 

[^woody^]

Why scaremonger with something that isn't relevent?

Because it is relevent

And its not s a simple case of "your duties as a domestic client are automatically transferred to the contractor or principal contractor" and ths clients responsibility ending. Nor is it just a simple case of the contractor accepting liability. The client still has responsibilities under CDM.

You've obviously just read a few lines on the HSE website, so your ignorance is understandable.

The only good thing in the OP's favour is that the HSE most likely don't have the time or resources to do anything about it, and even more probablly can't be bothered to interpret their own badly written guidance.

But the most significant thing, is the risk not from the HSE, but from one of those workers going to a no-win no-fee solicitor, claiming exposure to ACM and then winning a tidy sum all because the OP client failed to ensure the necessary safety procedures were in place, making the site de facto unsafe and he liable as the client.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Unfortunately, the responsibility to know that there is asbestos present falls on the property owner. You can't expect the trades to automatically know what is asbestos and what isn't.

...........

Not correct - Reg 4 doesn't apply to owner-occupied home, rules differ massively from work on commercial premises.

 

[C p]

Did the HSE say anything about your lack of a CDM Construction Phase Plan? Risk assessments and method statements? Are they going to prosecute?

Have you appointed a principle designer? Or are you accepting that responsibility/liability?

Are you insured for the potential claims from the workers for exposure as you have not followed CDM? They have six years to claim.

For clarity, chrysotile is non notifiable and non licensed removal, so anyone with an hour's training can bag it and remove it. Or you as the homeowner can do it yourself with no training and no HSE involvement.

All of the above are present. No prosecution. I've tried to do it all completely by the book. I suspect it was a malicious call to HSE by a contractor who lost out on the tender.

Thanks for the advice folks. I will just get the approved contractor to hoover it up, suck up the expense (excuse the pun) and put it behind me.

 

[^woody^]

If you have everything in place, then HSE should not have stopped the work.

Discovery of ACM is common, and the method statements deal with that by having a suitable procedure in place for if it is discovered. It sounds like you did not have an asbestos refurbishment survey in place to identify potential locations of ACM - which is normally a big thing for the HSE inspectors. Perhaps he just could not be bothered.