Security Lighting on external walls

[gwengo]

Hi all,

It's my first post on here so please bear with me if I sound like a total noob, cos I am . I would like to fit two security lights to an external wall. Now, I'm not sure how to explain it all so I have drawn up a little diagram:

Firstly, would it be possible to do this, running a socket from another socket? (the washing machine socket is on permanently)

Would the washing machine socket have to be changed to a multi socket and the switch for the lights have to be a two way?

And finally , I did buy some SWA cable, but found it was way too thick, and have noticed that on a few of my neighbouring houses, normal black flex has been used. So what cable can I use?

Any help would be gratefully received [/img]

 

[Chri5]

Use 3 core rubber flex.

If you come off the ring main then use a switched fuse spur which allows you to do on/ff and more importantly max out the light circuit at 3 amps.

Where possible keep the outside runs to a minimum, support with clips ever 300mm and use a drip loop and slightly angled (slope up from outside to in) when bringing the cable through the wall.

 

[gwengo]

Cheers Chri5!

So from my diagram, the switch for the lights will need to be fused. Will this still be a two way switch?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do you want 2-way switching? A switched FCU cannot be one of a pair of 2-way switches.

Any chance you could give us a complete description of what you want to do?

Also, I'm not 100% sure that when you say "socket" you mean what everybody else means by the term (e.g., are you calling a switched FCU a "fused socket"?).

Your diagram is open to interpretation about what is directly on the socket circuit, what comes off as fused spurs, and what is/are unfused spur(s) - can you clarify?


Finally are you aware that this is all notifiable work?

 

[gwengo]

Do you want 2-way switching? A switched FCU cannot be one of a pair of 2-way switches.

Any chance you could give us a complete description of what you want to do?

Also, I'm not 100% sure that when you say "socket" you mean what everybody else means by the term (e.g., are you calling a switched FCU a "fused socket"?).

Your diagram is open to interpretation about what is directly on the socket circuit, what comes off as fused spurs, and what is/are unfused spur(s) - can you clarify?

Finally are you aware that this is all notifiable work?

OK, sorry, when I put socket on the diagram I actually meant switch I did say I was a noob.

This is what I want:

Run a spur from the washing machine switch and link it to a new switch.
I then want to run a cable from that switch to the outside of the house.
Run the cable along the exterior wall.
Hook that up to one security light.
Run a cable from that security light to another one around the side of the house.

The FCU on the right in the diagram (the switch on the right) is for the central heating which I'm pretty sure would be on the main loop. Then a spur is taken from that to supply power to the washing machine, with a switch.

I am more than competent to do this, I've stripped out and refurbished two properties, installing two kitchens and two bathrooms, so this should be a breeze. I have also had some really bad experiences with electricians in the past, which is why I'm doing this myself and then getting it checked over.

 

[JonoPashley]

as long as the lights are on the side of the house and not stuck in the middle of the garden, the only external terminations are those on the lights and the feed isnt a new circuit or taken from a special location, then it is NOT notifiable work.

http://www2.theiet.org/Publish/Wire...summer_wiring_matters_part_p-2006_edition.pdf

second page.

 

[fattony]

isnt this notifiable works, lights are outside and Im assuming the feed is taken from a kitchen

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK, sorry, when I put socket on the diagram I actually meant switch I did say I was a noob.

So the thing on the right is a switched FCU? What are the two things to the left of it?

I then want to run a cable from that switch to the outside of the house.
Run the cable along the exterior wall.
Hook that up to one security light.
Run a cable from that security light to another one around the side of the house.

At what heights will these cables be? Can you be sure that they won't be at risk of physical damage?

The FCU on the right in the diagram (the switch on the right) is for the central heating which I'm pretty sure would be on the main loop.

You really do need to make 100% sure of exactly what you've got before proceeding.

Then a spur is taken from that to supply power to the washing machine, with a switch.

What sort of switch is that? How is the WM then connected, via a flex outlet or a plug & socket?

Is the WM supplied from the load terminals of the boiler FCU, or is it an unfused spur from the supply side?

I am more than competent to do this, I've stripped out and refurbished two properties, installing two kitchens and two bathrooms, so this should be a breeze.

Not having a go, but I've got far less confidence in your electrical skills than you...

I have also had some really bad experiences with electricians in the past, which is why I'm doing this myself and then getting it checked over.

Are you aware that from the POV of compliance with the Building Regulations that isn't how it works?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

as long as the lights are on the side of the house and not stuck in the middle of the garden, the only external terminations are those on the lights and the feed isnt a new circuit or taken from a special location, then it is NOT notifiable work.

http://www2.theiet.org/Publish/Wire...summer_wiring_matters_part_p-2006_edition.pdf

second page.

It's not the IET that make legislation...

 

[JonoPashley]

as long as the lights are on the side of the house and not stuck in the middle of the garden, the only external terminations are those on the lights and the feed isnt a new circuit or taken from a special location, then it is NOT notifiable work.

http://www2.theiet.org/Publish/Wire...summer_wiring_matters_part_p-2006_edition.pdf

second page.

It's not the IET that make legislation...

the IET has taken the information directly from approved document p, which as you know is the law.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

page 10 figure i.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Oh dear.

Firstly, Approved Document P is not the law, it is only guidance. This is the law.

Secondly, the law does not specify that lights on the outside wall of a house are non-notifiable in any circumstances - they are clearly an outdoor lighting installation and therefore fail the test in Schedule 2B paragraph 2(b) for being non-notifiable.

Thirdly, even if you decide to take advantage of the incorrect advice in the guidance (on the reasonable basis that they won't do you for following official advice), when it says in Table 2 Additional Notes i that outside lighting is not notifiable provided that there are no exposed outdoor connections it does not mean "exposed" as in open to the elements, uncovered, open to touch - it means are they made outside, i.e. does any cable run outside and then go into the light.

Which in this case it does.

 

[JonoPashley]

Dont you "Oh Dear" me.

Complying with the contents on Part P and BS7671:2008 pretty much ensures compliance with the law.

It does not mean the cable. It means no terminations may be made on the outside wall of the building except in the enclosure provided on the equipment. This i have confirmed with both LABC and Elesca in the past, due to the unclear nature of their "Guidance".

If you dont like it then go ahead and notify it. Until then ill continue issuing MWCs for security lighting.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Dont you "Oh Dear" me.

Why not, when after all these years you still don't understand the difference between the actual law and Approved Documents.

Complying with the contents on Part P and BS7671:2008 pretty much ensures compliance with the law.

Indeed, but the fact that they represent A way to comply with the law does not make them THE law.

It does not mean the cable. It means no terminations may be made on the outside wall of the building except in the enclosure provided on the equipment. This i have confirmed with both LABC and Elesca in the past, due to the unclear nature of their "Guidance".

Two other bodies who also do not make legislation...

If you dont like it then go ahead and notify it. Until then ill continue issuing MWCs for security lighting.

The EIC/MWC issue has nothing to do with whether a job is notifiable.

 

[Stoday]

It's not the IET that make legislation...

Quite right BAS. It's worth pointing out that the IET publication conflicts with Approved Document part P in two ways I've noticed, viz:

1) It refers to "Like for like" replacement. There is nowhere in part P or in the approved document where this phrase, or even one like it, is used.

2) It says "The installation of a wall light where the connections were made immediately behind the fitting would not be notifiable, but if connections were made inside an external joint box and then to a fitting the work would be notifiable". The AD says "The installation of equipment attached to the outside wall of a house...is not notifiable provided that there are no exposed outdoor connections...". A joint box enclosure has no exposed connections.

Of course BAS has already commented that the AD is not the law, it's only an interpretation of it. Nevertheless, I consider BAS to be supremely arrogant to consider that his interpretation of what the law says should take priority over the department that wrote both the law and its interpretation.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you really think that junction boxes and lights etc are so readily available with what you think are "exposed connections" that they require that special clarification in the guidance then carry on. Personally I think that the use anywhere of a junction box or light with what you think are "exposed connections" would contravene so many Wiring Regulations that it could never happen. I've also never seen a junction box or light with what you think are "exposed connections", but then I've not seen every product on the market.

Maybe you could show me one?