seeking reassurance

[Milligan]

Hi,

I am in the process of rennovating my lounge and have take the opportunity to sink the surface mounted electrics into the walls as well as move and add some sockets.

What I have done is move 1 double socket to another wall and added a single spur for the wall mounted TV. The double gang is on the ring main so only the single gange socket is a spur - is this OK?

Second, I've moved another socket to another wall but due to some space issues I could only get 1 cable into the wall so it is now a double gange socket spur connected to a 30amp junction box fixed to the joist under the floor.

There are two wiring colours and I have connected everything properly i.e. Red-Brown, Black - Blue and earth remains. All new wires are 2.5mm 2 core + earth and I have put a sticker on the CU saying there are 2 different wiring standards.

So, does this all sound right? As far as I can determine nothing here is notifiable, right?

Finally, I am a little concerned about the total length of the ring main - there was a lot of spare cable under the floor and I have added a bit more as I didn't realise how much there was already. Should I look to trim some of this off before I close the floor up for good?

Just need some reassurance...

 

[Chri5]

Hi,

I am in the process of rennovating my lounge and have take the opportunity to sink the surface mounted electrics into the walls as well as move and add some sockets.

What I have done is move 1 double socket to another wall and added a single spur for the wall mounted TV. The double gang is on the ring main so only the single gange socket is a spur - is this OK? ...

Fine as long as you have used 2.5mm TE

Second, I've moved another socket to another wall but due to some space issues I could only get 1 cable into the wall so it is now a double gange socket spur connected to a 30amp junction box fixed to the joist under the floor.

You mustn't have j/b's hidden- they must be accessible. You are best doing away with it completely and running the cable in to the socket box.
There's no such thing as 'only able to fit 1 x cable'- pull that out an open up the route between floor and box large enough for the 2 rings + spur cable.

There are two wiring colours and I have connected everything properly i.e. Red-Brown, Black - Blue and earth remains. All new wires are 2.5mm 2 core + earth and I have put a sticker on the CU saying there are 2 different wiring standards.

So, does this all sound right? As far as I can determine nothing here is notifiable, right?

All within the remit of DIY none notifiable- but still has to be done correctly, safely and with some basic testing of the circuit.

Finally, I am a little concerned about the total length of the ring main - there was a lot of spare cable under the floor and I have added a bit more as I didn't realise how much there was already. Should I look to trim some of this off before I close the floor up for good?

Just need some reassurance...

There's no point in having surplus cable under floor on a fixed wiring system- take it out.

 

[electronicsuk]

What I have done is move 1 double socket to another wall and added a single spur for the wall mounted TV. The double gang is on the ring main so only the single gange socket is a spur - is this OK?

That's fine. One spur per accessory on the ring final.

Second, I've moved another socket to another wall but due to some space issues I could only get 1 cable into the wall so it is now a double gange socket spur connected to a 30amp junction box fixed to the joist under the floor.

There are two wiring colours and I have connected everything properly i.e. Red-Brown, Black - Blue and earth remains. All new wires are 2.5mm 2 core + earth and I have put a sticker on the CU saying there are 2 different wiring standards.

There's nothing wrong with spurring from a junction box, conceptually it's not any different to taking it from the back of a socket outlet. However, you shouldn't really be putting junction boxes in inaccessible locations such as under the floor. I haven't got the reg number to hand right now, but all screwed termination should be accessible for inspection.

That said, it's not at all uncommon to find this done, and from what I gather it's still practiced by some domestic sparks who really should know better. There are far worse sins, and as long as all the screws are tight and incoming/outgoing cables clipped to prevent any movement, it shouldn't give you any problems.

So, does this all sound right? As far as I can determine nothing here is notifiable, right?

It's only an extension/alteration to an existing circuit and, as I assume it's not in a kitchen or bathroom, then it isn't notifiable.

Finally, I am a little concerned about the total length of the ring main - there was a lot of spare cable under the floor and I have added a bit more as I didn't realise how much there was already. Should I look to trim some of this off before I close the floor up for good?

Just need some reassurance...

Yes, there's no point having excessive lengths of cable coiled up under the floor. If you're really concerned about excessive length of ring conductors then it would be possible to test for continuity at the consumer unit and verify that readings are within spec, all the info you need is in the OSG.

EDIT: Damn, beaten by two minutes!

 

[Chri5]

As least we agree- exception being the j/b

 

[Milligan]

Thank you both. So the only potentially hinky thing is the junction box under the floor...

Thing is, I've just had the wall skimmed and am by no means keen on trying to open the hole up anymore and risk busting the plaster

I accept it might not be best practice but as I mention it is secured to the joist. So, is there another option here; perhaps one of these?http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html


P.S. I'll trim the cables...

 

[bongos]

So, is there another option here; perhaps one of these?http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

Basically, no. The junction box must be accessible. Whether allegedly maintenance free or not. See this one of many posts about accessible JB's.

Could you cut a hatch in the floorboards maybe making the junction box accessible?

If not then crimping may be able to solve your problem. Use proper crimpers and crimps like these below and not the automotive kind.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi,

I am in the process of rennovating my lounge and have take the opportunity to sink the surface mounted electrics into the walls as well as move and add some sockets.

What I have done is move 1 double socket to another wall and added a single spur for the wall mounted TV. The double gang is on the ring main so only the single gange socket is a spur - is this OK?

are the cables you have sunk into the wall protected by an RCD? -They should be

Second, I've moved another socket to another wall but due to some space issues I could only get 1 cable into the wall .

wow, either thats a very narrow wall or very wide cable. Or am i missing something here?

so it is now a double gange socket spur connected to a 30amp junction box fixed to the joist under the floor.

Get rid of the JB completely if possible. If not those 803's are very easy to use and will comply with the regs. IMO theres no need at all to ever put a screw terminal JB into an inaccessible position.

There are two wiring colours and I have connected everything properly i.e. Red-Brown, Black - Blue and earth remains. All new wires are 2.5mm 2 core + earth and I have put a sticker on the CU saying there are 2 different wiring standards.

So, does this all sound right? As far as I can determine nothing here is notifiable, right?

That may depend on whether you need to provide RCD protection to those newly buried cables.

Finally, I am a little concerned about the total length of the ring main - there was a lot of spare cable under the floor and I have added a bit more as I didn't realise how much there was already. Should I look to trim some of this off before I close the floor up for good?

Just need some reassurance...

The ring you mention - how much floor area does it serve? Can you estimate how much excess cable you think there is?

Depending on the answers to those may tell you whether its worth shortening the cables or just leave it alone

 

[bongos]

those 803's are very easy to use and will comply with the regs

I promise i'm not trying to start this argument again but I didn't think they did comply with 526.3...

 

[electronicsuk]

those 803's are very easy to use and will comply with the regs

I promise i'm not trying to start this argument again but I didn't think they did comply with 526.3...

They don't comply, unless you read the manufacturer's literature.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

those 803's are very easy to use and will comply with the regs

I promise i'm not trying to start this argument again but I didn't think they did comply with 526.3...

hadn't realised this one has been done before on this forum.

There does seem to be (surprise, surprise) a ambiguity between the suggestion in app15 and 526.3. A little more clarity may have helped here.
Havent read the MI for them, but the sales speil suggests they can be used in in accessible places.

Who is to say how to define 'appropriate compression tool'
The 803 has a spring which 'compresses' onto the conductor.
Can the spring be considered to be a tool?
If so, i would say it is appropriate and therefore....

 

[electronicsuk]

Who is to say how to define 'appropriate compression tool'
The 803 has a spring which 'compresses' onto the conductor.
Can the spring be considered to be a tool?
If so, i would say it is appropriate and therefore....

As with much of BS7671, it is open to interpretation to some extent, and especially so when it suits a particular application such as so-called "maintenance free terminals". However, I think most of us would be able to agree that, if we're being honest, "compression tool" is not referring to maintenance free terminals. Rather, compression crimps and a ratchet compression crimping tool.

 

[Milligan]

A regulation which is not clearly defined, slightly impractical and open to interpretation... sacre bleu!

The cables are in a conduit, it's just not big enough for 2 cables.

The existing CU is an old type - I've replaced the fuses with plug in MCB's but am planning to upgrade it to when I add a spur for the cooker in the kitchen...which I know is notifiable and I will be getting a sparky to do that - if I can find one that bothers to turn up (another thread perhaps).

The floor space of the flat is 110m2 but most of the wiring is done on the inside walls so the area "serviced" is significantly smaller. Like I said, I'll trim off the excess wiring.

How would I do a 3 way join with a crimping tool?

Finally, if Hager where marketing this product as being compliant and it wasn't, they'd be open to a substantial liability claim under a number of pieces of legislation... Are you really saying this thing isn't compliant?

All I want to know is, is it safe?

 

[sparkwright]

JBs are supposed to be accessible.

You're right about how can you successfully do a 3 way joint with crimps, though I have seen a 3 way crimp joint.

Personally, I think DIYers would probably make a better joint with a junction box. Have seen many poor joints done with crimps, though possibly done with the wrong tool.

I suppose you could consider how far you want to go with this job, whether you want to follow every letter of the regs.

It was typical until the 70s to fit many junction boxes in new installations all hidden away and inaccessible. This was to save cable or make the job easier. So junction boxes under the floor are very common. And haven't found many burnt out. Just not permitted.

You may find reassurance that your house may already have them elsewhere.

There is no easy way to join more than two cables unfortunately.
I suppose the maintenance-free junction boxes may be an improvement, with their 17th edition compliant claim. But there is doubt here that they actually are compliant.

If you did find a 3-way crimp joint I would recommend putting it in a electrical box under the floor, and secure the cables to take the strain.

 

[Milligan]

My concern is that what I am doing must be safe. In so far as the regs govern that, I am happy to comply.

Where, however, the regs have been developed by a collection of jobsworths seeking to guarentee a stream of income with little or no real impact on the safety or longevity of electrics, then I have little interest in pursuing the intricacies of the act.

My thinking is that if JB's under floors were such a dramatic safety hazard, they'd enforce retrspective removal (as they did with asbestos) and this company certainly wouldn't pin it's colours to the pole and say it was compliant.

To me, a manufacturer claiming that a product is compliant must mean that it is! I suspect they have a large product development team, including legal council, that ensures that these things are fit for purpose and live up to ALL of their claims. Anything else would be gross negligence or deceit.

 

[sparkwright]

To me, a manufacturer claiming that a product is compliant must mean that it is! I suspect they have a large product development team, including legal council, that ensures that these things are fit for purpose and live up to ALL of their claims. Anything else would be gross negligence or deceit.

I think you have a valid point.