Severn Trent - Public Sewer Location - Whose Onus?

[machineage]

Hi all

Well after receiving planning approval - I shortly after received a letter from Severn Trent re: building over / close to a public sewer. I spoke to Severn Trent, and they said they had no records of a public sewer running along the rear entry behind my property, and in the vicinity of where I want to build my extension. They further said that doesn't mean to say there isn't one running along the entry, and that I should ask my neighbours to flush their toilet with the manholes uncovered on my property to see if anything flows through...

Well there is only one manhole on my property and it's adjacent a RWG & Toilet / bathroom outlets, nothing else feeds into it. They also suggested it could mean the drainage starts at my property & flows into my neighbours. They said they could not confirm that the sewer is private, as they have not received any information confirming the drainage run, therefore they can only advise what would make it a public sewer and what would make it private sewer. Further if I required a formal response from them confirming that it is private (assuming that it is) then they would require a drainage plan showing where the pipe is, direction of flow and any manholes, with a statement confirming that the neighbours have flushed their toilets whilst the manhole cover was open, along with a photo of the inside of the manhole!

I have spoken to BC about this, and they were somewhat flabbergasted. They suggested it was Severn Trent's responsibility to know where their sewers were located, and they should send out their survey team to locate & identify etc. I put this to Severn Trent, but they said due to ongoing record updating they would not send anyone out to carry out a survey.

Well, I really don't want to inconvenience my neighbour with this, having to get them to lift manhole covers (if they have one!) and flush toilets & take photographs etc. They may not not even agree to it.

Am I wrong to be with BC on this, I feel the onus is on Severn Trent to know where their sewers are, not mine?!

Anyone come across anything similar, and what your thoughts are?

Thanks!

 

[bernardgreen]

Am I wrong to be with BC on this, I feel the onus is on Severn Trent to know where their sewers are, not mine?

The water companies had to take over ownership of many private systems where more than one property was served by the sytem. Many these until then private systems were not accurately documented and the water companies have a lot of ongoing work to document them. The priority seems to be determined by those systems that need repair on the pipes serving more than one property. Also pipes under a property but serving a different property.

I experienced this last month when a manhole cover on my property needed repair. The surveyor just needed proof that more than one property was served by the manhole.

 

[jeds]

Your BC man is talking balls. It's your responsibility to apply to Severn Trent for permission to build over or within 3m of a public sewer. If you do either of these things you are obliged to provide details of the location of the sewer and your proposals. ST will then send a letter approving your proposal or not. You'll find a form on their website and there is a fee - a couple of hundred quid. You are under no obligation to have them approve your building if you are not building within those parameters or if the drain is private. If this is the case you can carry on.

 

[mfarrow]

Dealing with ST is relatively straight forward and all you'll lose is a few hundred quid of fees plus sewer pipe surveys.

If you chose to carry on regardless and find a pipe at either end of your trench going to your neighbours and falling your way then it'll be pretty damn obvious that it's a public sewer.

You also want these things confirmed before talking to builders and they start smashing drains up with diggers and start sucking through their teeth with an extra in the post.

 

[machineage]

Thanks for the replies.

So what would be the recommended course of action here? I understand it's my responsibility to make an application if I am building within 3 metres of a public sewer - that's not the problem. My local BC guy was never saying that was in question. The issue was ST not knowing where the public sewers are located, and landing the onus on me to show them where their sewers were located.

I don't know if there are any shared drains - and whether or not there is a sewer to the rear entry (which would most likely be a public sewer). If I had a survey done would that be able to define what are and what aren't public sewers under the recent changes? Would the onus then fall onto the company who carried out the survey, if for example later down the line something else was discovered that contradicted the original survey?

ST said they would require a pre & post electro-location survey and their application fee - totals around £700.

Under what circumstances would they likely refuse the proposed building works?

Thanks again

 

[bernardgreen]

As I said the water company survayor was happy to accept my information about which sewers under my land were shared and which were only for my property.

I knew which pipes were mine and which were from neighbours. If it had been necessary to have shown the surveyor actual proof then I would have used tracing dyes in the neighbours toilets to stain the water.

A friend in a similar situation had the same experience in that the water company were glad that the land owner had provided details of the sewer connections.

You could carryout the tracing when convenient for your neighbours. The water board will probably accept your word if you explain how you did it. Explain toe the neighbours that if the tests show they depend on shared sewers for some of the route then the shared sewers will become the responsibility of the water company ensuring they are repaired when necessary, probably without charge to them.

Tracing dies can be bought from builders merchants in various colours. Check that the dye is bi-degradible. Most are but a few colours contain flourescent materials and these are best avoided.

 

[machineage]

Thanks bernardgreen

Yes I can approach my neighbours, armed as you suggest with the news that any shared drains would now fall under the responsibility of ST. I am not sure if they will agree to carrying out the tests, only one way to find out.

However that wouldn't define whether or not there was a sewer to the rear entry. I suspect this is why they are asking for an electro-location survey to be done.

 

[^woody^]

You can get a drain CCTV survey done, which will locate all the drains on your property, and confirm if there are shared or not, without distributing any neighbours.

In practice, no-one knows where any drains are actually laid unless/until they are mapped afterwards. In most cases it has never been necessary to have exact details of drain runs as they are typically easy to locate when necessary. Recent ownership changes has forced the water companies to be responsible for drains which previously were not theirs. Landowners were always responsible for private drains on their property, so perhaps it is right that they be responsible for locating them.

I'm not sure where you get the £700 figure from. You should only need one survey at about £180 plus the application fee of £170 for a 4" drain.

 

[machineage]

Thanks woody

ST told me they need a full electro-location survey, not just a standard CCTV survey with a DVD. I contacted the nearest company to me who do this and they quoted '£300 - £350'. The follow-up survey which ST said they would need if there was a drain to the rear entry (which would certainly be within 3 metres of excavations) would be 'around £200' due to not requiring electro-location. Then the £170 to ST.

So ST want me to pay for the initial electro-location survey to find their sewer - and then the additional survey + application fee if a sewer is found to be in the rear entry.

 

[jeds]

Most drainage companys are well used to doing these surveys and will have a standard specification for the particular sewer authority. The cost should be no more than about £200 for the survey and they will do both location and cctv in the same operation. Sewer authority charges vary. In Wessex it's £325 for all diameters - in Thames it's similar for a 4" but goes up to nearly £700 for a 6". If I were you I'd do everything I can to identify and locate the sewer from neighbouring manholes etc myself, and revert to a cctv and application only if it looks like it might be within the relevant zones. If there is a sewer nearby there will be manholes. If not next door then the next one along.