Should I be satisified? (with college place)

[Adam_151]

As many people probably know, I've been accepted onto the electrical installation course at newark college from next year, my concern centres around whether I should continue to try and find an apprenticeship (like I have been doing unsuccessfully for the last year, until I found I'd got a college place) and have the college course to fall back on..., or just be happy with the college place

From what I see the college course gives me CG2330, but not the NVQ, but it does give me the theory part in order to do the NVQ, I'm guessing to get the NVQ you just need to present a portfoliolo detailing work you have done? (reading spark123's negative comments re: the NVQ on another thread and drawing on my experience of an NVQ in IT a couple of years or so ago...I can guess there is a lot of 'jumping through hoops' while proving very little... ?) is it a quick thing to do when you are working in the industry, or slow and painful kinda thing?

As a sidepoint, becuase I've never seen an offical definition....at what point would you refer to someone as a qualified spark, 2330 + 2381 + 2391 ? or is the NVQ an something that you really 'have' to have?

I just don't want to go and get a handful of qualifications now and have it bite me in the arse later on because I'm missing something

The plan with going to college is to get some practical expereince by offering to work cheap/free to some local sparks to get some experience, and going S/E in the end (would there be suffcient scope with that kinda approach to get the NVQ?)

Would do the apprenticeship thing, but put loads of effort into finding one, and got nothing, oh and the whole practical joke kinda thing that is rumoured to exist, can't say the thought of all that fills me with confidence tbh

Sorry this post is a bit dis-jointed, but my thoughts are the same at the moment (got quite a few things playing on my mind atm)

Thanks for any answers/advice anyone can give

Regards,

Adam

Edit: A few typos fixed
Edit2: And a few more

 

[JohnD]

When I was working at Scot & South, they had a handful of apprenticeships a year ago based near Perth (you know what a big company they are) though a lot of the work would have been in generation and distribution.

I think the fashion for apprenticing has gone away now.

Have a look at http://www.socweb.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23674&KW=apprenticeships

This would not have been for what we normally think of as "Electricians." Although they have Contracting arms in several regions of the country (including the old Eastern and Swalec regions) and many of my chums had been apprentices many years before.

 

[Spark123]

Don't let me put you off Adam, I was merely pointing out that when I did my apprenticeship the logbook was more for evidential purposes i.e. writing daft statements like "complied with relevent health and safety documentation" doesn't mean anything to me now. If you can get an apprenticeship go for it, I did mine in an industrial background which covered 1 phase, 3 phase, motors, lighting, control and instrumentation. Flat twin and earth was unheard of, it was all conduits, trunking, pyro and SWA, me being tall I didn't go for the apprenticeship on the submarines as I ain't the most agile person about, nor am I the best frame to be scouting about in a house loft.

 

[divadoll_1]

Adam I am in a similar situation myself. I qualified as a plumber 2 years ago and managed to squeeze in on the last NVQ2 that didnt specify that you had to be in the industry in order to get your experience. I made up an extensive portfolio based on smallish jobs (and my own central heating installation) for friends and relations. So long as you follow the requirements most colleges will sway to make the experience count towards the NVQ and help out as best they can.
I too am on the 2330 in my second year. The college is pushing me towards taking the NVQ next year in my third year, but I am undecided as to whether it is necessary. From the questions I have asked possible employers, they prefer the old C&G schemes anyhow, and dont recognise the NVQ3 as much.
I think you should ask the question..."What is counted as a 'Qualified Electrician' in my area by the employers I will be approaching?"
Alison

 

[Pensdown]

As a sidepoint, becuase I've never seen an offical definition....at what point would you refer to someone as a qualified spark, 2330 + 2381 + 2391 ? or is the NVQ an something that you really 'have' to have?

What ever qualifications you end up with unfortunately you will need some site experience before an employer will class you as qualified. The amount of site experience you will need to demonstrate will depend on the type of work you are looking to do.

For example and as I’ve said before, based on your knowledge of the industry which you have demonstrated on here an employer may consider you for an office based trainee design engineer but the same employer may not consider you as an on site engineer. As a trainee design engineer, from an employer’s point of view from day one they could earn money from you because you already have enough knowledge to design some installations.

However, to get you going as an on site engineer with very little site experience they would need to invest in you and they could not recoup that investment until you were out on your own.

Age is also against people who want to retrain because an employer has to pay more whilst training making the situation even worse. Once fully trained quite a few leave to go self employed which makes the whole training exercise a complete waste of money for the employer which is why most don't bother.

Unfortunately for people like you and divadoll_1 it’s getting harder to get into the electrical industry and I don’t know what the answer is. We need more qualified sparks but as employers don’t want to or can’t afford to invest in the training anymore where are they going to come from?

 

[james 29]

Adam,

As mentioned to a previous post you need to be pretty clear about your intended field. Structure your courses and career around the area you want to work in. I was lucky enough to do a 4 year traditional apprenticeship in a yard building ships and oil rig platforms but as john says they are becoming less popular. Probably due to the lack of major institutions and job security.

In your position, without the necessary practical, unless you want to bash houses i would go all the way to degree level in design or something similar. Even if you know the theory in most electrical fields, to practice it and develop a good understanding and most of all confidence IMO takes years. If you are struggling to get placed do a design course national, hnc and degree. I accept you need knowledge of installations but most designers dont come from a field route.

This may not be your choice but is a suggestion to earn a living in an industry which you are obviously interested in. I think you would stand more chance of being employed as a junior or trainee engineer with the above route. I disagree with some suggestions that the nvq is not of good standing. As we all know they are actually a bit lightweight but most jobs will specify c +g or equivalent nvq. I find employers value the nvq because it is endorsed by the company you work for. IIrc your employer has to verify a lot of info that goes into it. Not many would lie on your behalf if you were not up to scratch.

Im only 30 but dont know what 2330 is. Has this replaced the 2360. We did 232 in electrical maintenance followed by hnc in electrical engineering. I sat my 2360 pt 1 because i thought i woud need it to do install but lets be honest its nothing that reading the rgs wont give you. In our college theres about 20 people each year sit it full time who are on benefit and most pass. They have never touched a cable in their lives and go on to get part 2 and think they are qualified. Scary. From your posts you are obviously clued up so i hope ive given you some food for thought without actually discouraging you.

hth

James

 

[divadoll_1]

I fully appreciate the problem here, especially as I have had the same experience trying to get onsite work for plumbing too. As an active member of the IPHE for the Kent branch, we are trying to set up work experience for training plumbers, but the apathy is overwhelming. I am coming to realise that it is common to all trades, not just plumbing.
Does the electrical industry have a training board like the IPHE is for plumbing? If so, what do they suggest/promote?

 

[Albert]

My advice would be that both are very important, the practical experience is to know how to do things, the theory is to understand why. Going to college will not be a problem if you get to work for some one at the same time as the course is once a week day or 2 evenings and I don't believe that it will be a problem.
The course is important if you would like to register with a competent person scheme as they will ask you for qualifications, your work experience will not be enough but the other way around you can do it.

 

[JackTheCat]

james29, is spot on with everything he has said.
If i was your age i would not even dream of going in for installation full time. Do the 2330, then go for a degree, you got time on your side.

 

[Pensdown]

Does the electrical industry have a training board like the IPHE is for plumbing? If so, what do they suggest/promote?

We’ve got our single apprentice signed up with the JTL (we’re still doing our bit ) who look after his formal training. What do they promote? I’m not sure. They get their funding from the government based on bums on seats. I suspect at times they put their own business interests before the training. We’ve been taking on apprentices for over 15 years and in that time the level of training IMO has dropped significantly. For example, they no longer use the regs book only the On Site Guide. The first year of training is nearly all based on health & safety and the restrictions they impose on us often means the lad is standing around because as a “young person” he’s not allowed to do the work until he’s 18.

They have continually reduced the intake competence level maybe to match the level of school kids I don’t know. If you fail the JTL entrance exam you can re-sit it with a trainer who will guide you through the questions – they basically do the test for you.

This all dilutes how employers perceive these training bodies and the new qualifications. Quite frankly as you said in your post we prefer to employ people who have completed a time served apprenticeship and have C&G qualifications but these people are becoming harder to find.

 

[baldelectrician]

Adam

Glad you have got some college experience

Just a word of caution- I have experienced some colleges that have told a white lie or two to put bums on seats as it were.

telling people 'just to this, this and this course and your 16th Edition and that's you an electrican.'

In a nutshell if you get a JIB grade card & a CSCS health and safety card out of it it's a winner.

Up here (Scotland) SECTT run access courses for people who don't get in as an apprentice. The courses are on MON & TUES and an unpaid work experience with a JIB registered employer on Wednesday. Almost all people who do an access course end up with an apprenticeship.

To sum up make sure the JIB are aware of the course and if they aren't find one that is. There is no point wasting a couple of years of your life just to find out nobody will give you a job- if I were ever to take on a tradesman/woman I would ask for a copy of his papers or if he didn't have that his National Insurance number, phone up SJIB and find out if he had done an apprenticeship and his current qualifications- no positive feedback from JIB no JOB

 

[Adam_151]

I don't think it directly leads to a JIB card, but rather gives CG2330 and the classroom bits to back up the the NVQ that I gather evidence for in my practical experience (that I'm hopeing is easier to get than a full blown apprenticeship)

Got this from the JIB website:

1) Must have been a registered apprentice or undergone some equivalent method of training and have had practical training in electrical installation work.

2) Must have obtained an NVQ Level 3 in electrical installation work (or approved equivalent) - see Note 1.

3) Must be 21 years of age (which requirement may be waived if the applicant has obtained a pass in the City & Guilds 2360 Electrical Installation Theory Part 2 Course or approved equivalent).

Not sure if I could get the experience that I plan to get by offering to work for free to contractors, to count as an 'equivalent method of training' re: point number 1

 

[Albert]

I know that some people will not agree with me, but I did not come near JIB. because of my age I could not get a job even for free (my background is not electrics).
I have done the (old now) 2360 part 1 and 2 and in parallel to part 2 I have done 2391 (inspection and testing). I am registered with NAPIT and if I whished I could register with any other competent person scheme.

I really believe that understanding the theory is the basis for a good and safe design and installation.

If you can't work as an apprentice you should do what you can, I am self employed just because I could not get the experience by working as an apprentice.

The only thing that you should do is if you are not sure about something ASK!!! there are a few good forums with professional people that will be pleased to help you out.

 

[Fratton sPark]

Adam, don't let the practical joke side of things put you off, it can be a real scream (literally in some cases.)
Always remember a geezer I know, telling me bout when he was an apprentice painter. He had a few jokes played on him, but nothing bad. But, then a new apprentice started.....
They were working in a morgue one day, and come knocking off time, were just getting in the van. Suddenly one of the older guys says to the new lad, "Oh, I forgot my brushes, run in and get them."
So in he trots, but by now most of the lights are off, he's in there on his own, and getting real spooked, looking for these brushes. Well he spots them on the side of a slab, complete with corpse under a sheet.
He creeps over, and just as he reaches out for them, you guessed it, the corpse sits up, letting out a deathly moan.
The poor kid near s*at himself, only to look round and see everyone else creased up. The "corpse" was one of the older painters who had sneaked in and hid under the sheet.
When I was told bout this, I was crying with laughter. So as you can see, apprentices can have a really good laugh at work.

 

[baldelectrician]

They have continually reduced the intake competence level maybe to match the level of school kids I don’t know. If you fail the JTL entrance exam you can re-sit it with a trainer who will guide you through the questions – they basically do the test for you.

Up here (with SECTT) the kids get one test - then a resit - both unassisted in exam conditions. No babysitting or extra chances.