I am replacing an electrical triton shower in a bathroom for a identical make of shower and need to know if you now have to get a electrical certificate and sign off once complete. 
Shower installation
- Thread starter plumbingandheatingltd
- Start date
Replacing the shower with one of the same doesn't require notification under part p however it still needs to comply with P1 i.e. it must be safe.
From the IEE regs POV there isn't a requirement to certifty it however if the client is requesting a certificate then a Minor Works Certificate can be used.
From the IEE regs POV there isn't a requirement to certifty it however if the client is requesting a certificate then a Minor Works Certificate can be used.
G
Goldberg
Why would you expect electrical testing to be carried out after replacing an electric shower of the same rating?
Would you expect a ring final circuit to be tested after buying a new kettle?
Would you expect a ring final circuit to be tested after buying a new kettle?
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There is a difference between a fixed installation and temporary installation and as it stands if you use an extension lead in a kitchen you do not need a completion certificate but use a few clips to nail the cable safely out of harms way and clip the multi socket onto to some screws in the wall and you then need a completion certificate however daft it seems.
This was of course done to stop people using a plug and socket to get around the regulations.
The same applies with any other fixed installations they should be tested.
As to kettles may be I don't test the one at home. But the one at work is tested and records kept. We refer to it as PAT testing.
When replacing items many electricians will not record the test results but I would hope the items are still tested. And personally I would always record the results so if later some one else alters anything I have some proof it was OK when I left.
This was of course done to stop people using a plug and socket to get around the regulations.
The same applies with any other fixed installations they should be tested.
As to kettles may be I don't test the one at home. But the one at work is tested and records kept. We refer to it as PAT testing.
When replacing items many electricians will not record the test results but I would hope the items are still tested. And personally I would always record the results so if later some one else alters anything I have some proof it was OK when I left.
G
Goldberg
@ericmark - you use the terms "fixed installation" and "temporary installation", and you say that there's a difference between them, but where are these terms defined and where is the difference defined?
And when you say "completion certificate", are you saying that fixing an extension lead flex and a multi socket into a kitchen is work that's notifable under the Building Regulations?
And you say that you pesonally record test results, what tests would carry out after replacing a shower unit with one of an identical brand and power rating?
Isn't commissioning such a unit according to the manufacturer's installation instructions a sufficient test? Would you re-test the circuit to the shower?
And when you say "completion certificate", are you saying that fixing an extension lead flex and a multi socket into a kitchen is work that's notifable under the Building Regulations?
And you say that you pesonally record test results, what tests would carry out after replacing a shower unit with one of an identical brand and power rating?
Isn't commissioning such a unit according to the manufacturer's installation instructions a sufficient test? Would you re-test the circuit to the shower?
Installation and test are different things.
Yes.
If the old unit was defective it may not have been taking full load when used. So I would measure voltage drop along supply cable to determine that the cable was not liable to overheating at the full load of the fully functionally new unit. That would not show any hot spots such as changes in size of the cable along the run from the CU ( visible inspection needed ) but is better than assuming the cable is OK.
G
Goldberg
Installation (of a cable) and non-installation (of a cable) are two different things.
So, you would test the circuit to a shower when replacing it with one of the same rating, even when there's no reason to suspect that there's anything wrong with the circuit.
Would you test the circuit to a kettle when replacing a kettle, even though there's no reason to suspect that there's anything wrong with the circuit?
Would you test all circuits in the installation?
Where's the line, and who put it there?
Would you venture to suggest what ericmark meant by "temporary installation"?
So, you would test the circuit to a shower when replacing it with one of the same rating, even when there's no reason to suspect that there's anything wrong with the circuit.
Would you test the circuit to a kettle when replacing a kettle, even though there's no reason to suspect that there's anything wrong with the circuit?
Would you test all circuits in the installation?
Where's the line, and who put it there?
Would you venture to suggest what ericmark meant by "temporary installation"?
G
Goldberg
The same is true of a kettle.
Or, if you don't like the kettle corollary, an immersion heater element.
Let's say that you find a voltage drop of 12/240V in a cable of seemingly adequate capacity but of hidden and unknown run length.
The full load current of the shower unit remains as specified, so at which point along the length of the cable will it overheat?
I'm confused.
On the one hand, failing to test and thereby assuming that the cable is OK not acceptable to you, but finding no fault and assuming that the cable doesn't have any gauge changes is perfectly acceptable to you.
Where is the distinction between what's acceptable and what's unacceptable defined? Or is the requirement for testing left to the whim of the electrican who's replacing the shower?
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I will agree there are many different definitions of fixed and temporary one of course being use of screw or nail. But in this case I am looking on page 9 of Approved Document P h. where it states even where connection is by a 13A plug and socket. To get a definition of fixed you need to look in the in-service inspection and testing of electrical equipment which for fixed says "This is equipment or an appliance which is fastened to a support or otherwise secured in a specified location" which to my mind would include screws or nails unlike the legal definition used to determine ownership.
Yes that is true even if most people would not bother it is what it says on page 9. However there is a second document which does not seem to say exactly the same and one could try wangling out of this requirement but in any case that is not the issue here.
I would always do an earth loop impedance test it is the only way I can be sure the earth is intact. I have found in the past a nail had been knocked in dead centre of the cable and so even when the installation looks A1 there can be problems. And of course insulation resistance I know you should not have JB's in walls but it does happen.
And I jacked one job fitting cookers because he would not give me time to test cooker outlet before connecting up new cooker. So actions speak louder than words yes I would test.
At 57 and worked around the world I have seen many installation which look A1 and are not and I don't take anything for granted. Although you may be changing like for like unless you have the Minor works cert from last change how do you know what was fitted is what the system was designed for the shower you are replacing may not be the original.
I found one with a low prospective short circuit current so looked further and found the 10mm was joined to 2.5mm in the ceiling space and it had originally been a power shower in loft space and someone had changed it for a standard electric shower and changed MCB? Had I not tested on regular basis I may have missed that. When you test all the time you know what results to expect so a fault like that rings alarm bells but if you don't do it regular then you can easy miss things that are out of ordinary as they may still be within spec.
G
Goldberg
Approved Document P carries no weight at all.
But even it it did, which it doesn't, the paragraph (h) that you refer to doesn't relate to a nailed up extension lead.
Where is the line?
But even it it did, which it doesn't, the paragraph (h) that you refer to doesn't relate to a nailed up extension lead.
An extension lead isn't equipment or an appliance.
Page 9 is irrelevant. The entire Approved Document is irrelevant.
I have no idea what you mean by all that.
It doesn't "happen" in the middle of a shower replacement job that I do.
So why, when you so much as touch even one screwdriver in an unknown installation, do you not carry out a full inspection and test for all circuits? Why just the circuit that the shower you're replacing is connected to?
Where is the line?
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We can all pretend to be lawyers and try twisting what we read to suit what we want.
There are two laws which effects us the building regulations and electricity at work act. Added to this is case law where something similar has happened before and lawyers can quote these past cases.
However I do not want to be party in creating any new case law and the statute law is very loosely written.
What we realise is if we follow the recommendations of IET, BSi, ESC, and the other organisations who publish documents, then we are unlikely to have to prove we have worked in a lawful and or professional manor.
From time to time we read accounts of people who have fallen foul of the law and realise there by the grace of god go I.
There are many practices I have habitually done which on reading reports in trade magazines I later realise were not permissible.
One I remember well involved reporting faulty health and safety problems which I would do by verbally informing my foreman. However a guy working with me told the HSE about informing his foreman of a problem and was asked if this was in writing. To which he answered no and was told in no uncertain terms having now admitted he knew of the fault he could be taken to court for not reporting the fault in writing.
Until then I had no idea that all health and safety reports must be in writing.
So unless you write out a minor works cert or other written report you have no way to limit your responsibility. I have seen too often how once my back is turned someone alters what I have done.
Many years ago while still in collage we were shown a report on a faulty central heating installation.
The electrician had it seems found a lose wire while fitting the boiler which was green and had assumed he had knocked it off the earth spider of spades so as he thought replaced it.
He switched on the system and mega'ed the plug and all seemed OK so plugged it in.
The house holder reported getting a shock so he returned and tested continuity earth pin to pipe work and insulation resistance with unit switched on and found no fault.
Then someone died so now full investigation which found that green wire was normal closed wire from on/off switch so while the boiler was switched on there was no problem only when switched off.
Also there were hardly any earths in the house.
So we have four people who could be blamed.
1) Electrician who originally wired house with missing earths.
2) Manufacture of boiler for using a green wire which was not earth.
3) House owner who had not had the electrics checked every 10 years.
4) Electrician who wired in the boiler.
The court lay all the blame on the electrician who wired the boiler and gave the scenario that if one fits a plug to a kettle in a shop then one has no responsibility to test the house electrics but if the same plug is fitted in the house where it is to be used it is the electricians responsibility to test the socket. They also said it would have maybe considered as an accident had the owner not reported getting a shock but since the fault had been reported and nothing done then it was manslaughter.
Finding my collage notes and Whom v Crown the case was is not possible it was so long ago but I am sure these lawyers would soon find it. With that case in mind I would not leave any premises without testing fixed insulation.
I will admit I don't check sockets when I fit a kettle plug even though I know I should. Except at work as if I fit a kettle plug I have to PAT test and the Robin Tester automatic tests the socket during boot up so it is done.
If you know of a case since the 1970's when I was told about this where someone was acquitted with something similar I would be interested to know about it.
There are two laws which effects us the building regulations and electricity at work act. Added to this is case law where something similar has happened before and lawyers can quote these past cases.
However I do not want to be party in creating any new case law and the statute law is very loosely written.
What we realise is if we follow the recommendations of IET, BSi, ESC, and the other organisations who publish documents, then we are unlikely to have to prove we have worked in a lawful and or professional manor.
From time to time we read accounts of people who have fallen foul of the law and realise there by the grace of god go I.
There are many practices I have habitually done which on reading reports in trade magazines I later realise were not permissible.
One I remember well involved reporting faulty health and safety problems which I would do by verbally informing my foreman. However a guy working with me told the HSE about informing his foreman of a problem and was asked if this was in writing. To which he answered no and was told in no uncertain terms having now admitted he knew of the fault he could be taken to court for not reporting the fault in writing.
Until then I had no idea that all health and safety reports must be in writing.
So unless you write out a minor works cert or other written report you have no way to limit your responsibility. I have seen too often how once my back is turned someone alters what I have done.
Many years ago while still in collage we were shown a report on a faulty central heating installation.
The electrician had it seems found a lose wire while fitting the boiler which was green and had assumed he had knocked it off the earth spider of spades so as he thought replaced it.
He switched on the system and mega'ed the plug and all seemed OK so plugged it in.
The house holder reported getting a shock so he returned and tested continuity earth pin to pipe work and insulation resistance with unit switched on and found no fault.
Then someone died so now full investigation which found that green wire was normal closed wire from on/off switch so while the boiler was switched on there was no problem only when switched off.
Also there were hardly any earths in the house.
So we have four people who could be blamed.
1) Electrician who originally wired house with missing earths.
2) Manufacture of boiler for using a green wire which was not earth.
3) House owner who had not had the electrics checked every 10 years.
4) Electrician who wired in the boiler.
The court lay all the blame on the electrician who wired the boiler and gave the scenario that if one fits a plug to a kettle in a shop then one has no responsibility to test the house electrics but if the same plug is fitted in the house where it is to be used it is the electricians responsibility to test the socket. They also said it would have maybe considered as an accident had the owner not reported getting a shock but since the fault had been reported and nothing done then it was manslaughter.
Finding my collage notes and Whom v Crown the case was is not possible it was so long ago but I am sure these lawyers would soon find it. With that case in mind I would not leave any premises without testing fixed insulation.
I will admit I don't check sockets when I fit a kettle plug even though I know I should. Except at work as if I fit a kettle plug I have to PAT test and the Robin Tester automatic tests the socket during boot up so it is done.
If you know of a case since the 1970's when I was told about this where someone was acquitted with something similar I would be interested to know about it.
Why does all this carp about Part P not apply to Park Homes?
If it is so critical to saving lives , surely it either applies to any abode that people live in or none of them at all.
If it is so critical to saving lives , surely it either applies to any abode that people live in or none of them at all.
Electricity at Work Regulations! (Sorry - pet hate)
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