Skirting

[HERTS P&D]

No, he is masquerading as a Tradesman!

Andy

 

[blup]

I thought the OP was the handyman employed by his fellow tenants in the block.

Blup

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Wall under radiator is outside wall so I'll plug and screw ( I was told avoid screwing if possible), anyway I'll do it 300 centres as the nails arent biting and it's a joke.

The type of fixing you use always depends on the nature of the wall - hence the varied options I posted above. @JohnD did post about using low expansion foam, and I have used it on occasion when dealing with a problematic wall, but the guff I posted about sorting out the bottom of the PB applies in any case. You will find that even with a 2nd fix gun there are places where you can't get the gun in, there is nothing to fix into and the plaster is too soft or ropey to even dovetail nail, but it does expand slightly so you do need to restrain the skirting whilst it goes off (about 10 minutes, that's all)

The other wall is plasterboard- I'll knock for studs then just screw in. This should improve fixing. Is this the only way?

Hopefully they are wooden studs - MF (metal) studs you need to screw into, and that means using 4.0mm screws (because larger wood screws won't pierce the metal) or drywall screws (which in longer sizes are about 4.2mm threads)

With skirting there are all sorts of different techniques you need to use according to what sort of structure you are working with. Basically you star with the easiest and fastest technique (grip adhesive and ovals) and alter your approach as and when you need to. On hardwood, for example, you always need to drill, plug, screw and pellet because if the stuff moves (shrinks or swells) it can rip itself off the wall if all you do is pin it

Regarding guns I didnt know Milwaukee 1st and 2nd fix had gas, I thought that was just Paslo

Basically there are four main types of gun: compressor and pneumatic gun, gas nail gun, cordless battery nail gun with flywheel drive and cordless battery nail gun with pressurised gas drive.

Paslode, some Hikoki, Senco, Rawl, some Makita, some Bostitch use a nail gun where propane (?) gas is admitted into a cylinder and ignited by a spark supplied from a battery. Still the most commonly used method in the UK, but losing ground to full cordless systems. These are true gas nailers. These guns are compact, powerful and lightweight, but you really need to know how to service them (unles you fancy a £80 to £120 bill every time they go wrong - and they really aren't that hard to service) and IMHO they aren't ideal for sporadic use with long periods out of use, partly because the gas tends to leak. They will undoubtedly be banned in the longer term because of the fuel they use, but to my mind the extra cost of having to buy gas every time you buy nails (and extra £10 to £20 on every box) is the biggest down side

Cordless battery nail guns with flywheel drive are the creation of deWalt and are now in their second generation. The technology is also used by Bostitch (who are owned by B&D/Stanley, the parent of DW) but is also licensed to TacWise who make a dead ringer of the 1st generation DW guns, but that use Li-Ion batteries instead of the old NiCd ones. These guns are affordable if you already have 18 volt DW tools, but the guns are heavy and a but bulky. They are very reliable and the only things that ever seem to go wrong with them are broken drive pins (this happens from time to time with ALL nailers), worn/stretched return springs (relatively cheap DIY repair at about £30 to £50 every 2 to 3 years in trade use for the first fix - in 5 years I never had problems with my 2nd fix gun but the return springs on them are even cheaper) andn sometimes switches (as with all power tools). The only other complaint I have about the second fix guns is that they won't always sink nails in dense hardwoods, but if all you ever do is softwood and MDF, happy days! Of all the guns I have used the DW guns have the easiest to use jam clearance procedure (toolless)

Cordless battery nail guns with compressed gas drive were the creation of Porter-Cable, who have actually gone over to selling DW-sourced flywheel drive guns (USA only these days). The idea was been taken up by Ryobi (Air Strike) and Senco (Fusion) and has since been adopted by Hikoki and most recently by Milwaukee. All these guns work the same way - there is a cylinder of highly compressed gas inside the gun which is used to power the piston at the top of the drive pin. it is a sealed system and at the end of the stroke the gas is scavenged and recompressed by a small on-board compressor. The problem with any system like this is that they are always slightly lossy - in other words they lose pressure over time (think about aircon systems in cars - same issue). The Senco and Milwaukee guns use factory filled nitrogen cylinder which is not serviceable, so when the cylinder fails it requires a factory replacement. The price I quoted was the one quoted (rather unwillingly) to me. The Hikoki and Ryobi guns use compressed air in their cylinders and are serviceable, hence the lower recharge cost (BTW that £60 was what I actually paid to have a Hikoki 1st fix gun recharged last year, after 2 years use). This type of gun is more powerful that the DW type gun, but are generally slightly heavier and bulkier

I had no idea I'd have so many repair issues!

It isn't that there are repair issues, it's just that these tools require a bit more maintenance than, say, a cordless drill. Better to be aware of that than not.

Of course i would have dewalt but heard particularly 1st fix lacked power.

There are a lot of people who said that about them without ever having used one (not helped I feel by what appears to have been a disinformation campaign orchestrated by the gas nailer lobby when DW brought out theser 1st fix guns) - I was even nailing rafters up one day whilst the moron cuttiing for me was bitching about how gutless DW nailers were - so when I eventually came down from the tower I asked him if he'd ever used one, and did he realise that the yellow thing in my hand was a DW? I had that gun 5 years. DCN692, I also had the 16ga angled 2nd fix, having previously had 11st gen 16 and 18 ga guns. The initial model that DW introduced, the 1-speed DCN690, was underpowered for some jobs (e.g 90mm nails into soaking wet treated materials wouldn't always sink), but within about 12 months of introduction DW brought out a 2-speed model, the DCN692, which is most certainly not gutless. They are still with us and as I said I had one as my #1 gun for about 5 years. Very reliable and enough power for softwood work (which is what you use 1st fix guns on). The only thing I can say is that people often don't read the manual before use; it clearly states that for the first 1000 to 1500 nails the gun should ideally be used on shorter nails until it is run in, and will be tight, a bit like a car.

Frankly, for sporadic use, before cordless nailers came out, those little 5 litre portable compressors were brilliant, other than the fact that they are a bit heavy. But for a compressor and a really decent 2nd fix gun (e.g. Senco, DW, Hikoki, Bostitch, etc) you are looking at £200 to £250 all in, which is cheap. These compressors are also just about up to running a full size round head 1st fix nailer for fencing, although they can be a bit breathless if run hard. I used to have one years ago and one thing I did with it was fencing (mainly big 6 x 6ft hit and miss double sided panels). The only reason I wouldn't have one on site these days is the portability issue - they aren't nice if you're dragging them all over a big 5 to 10 storey building - but I do have a 50 ltr 110 volt compressor for sub-flooring work, which tends to be intense but all in one area for the day. That compressor is capable of running a first fix nailer full pelt (i.e 15k plus 50mm ring nails a day) for days at a time. Really all you need to do with pneumatic nailers is drain the compressor daily, check the hoses and feed the compressor and gun with a bit of oil, making them the lowest maintenance type of nailer there is.

My own nailing kit comprises two Hikoki 1st fix cordless nailers, one each Hikoki 15ga, 16ga and 18ga 2nd fix nailers and three Rawl 1st fix gas nailers. I also have a DW full head 1st fix pneumatic nailer and two Senco D-head 2nd fix pneumatic nailers. The pneumatics are specifically for builk flooring work, at which they excel. The TRawl gas nailers I have because I got fed up with idiots who couldn't understand how to use a DW cordless nailer - you work at the rate the machine does, not the rate you want to (a bit like driving a 1st generation Saab Turbo if you will - you need to wait for it to spin up, and if you want performance you've got to keep it spinning!) - it doesn't take much to learn how, but some people just can't (and they are also the same guys who eff up my collated screw guns, and for the same reasons)

 

[Keitai]

why, and who by?

Think a carpenter said he rarely did it. It would definitely give me the stronger fixing into brick, I'll do it

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I thought the OP was the handyman employed by his fellow tenants in the block.

That too, but he has stated on a number of occasions that he does paid work for other people as well

 

[HERTS P&D]

Look at the thread of the block paving he done, he made it worse!



Andy

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Think a carpenter said he rarely did it. It would definitely give me the stronger fixing into brick, I'll do it

I rarely do it (and for those inclined to think of double entendres I meant drill plug and screw softwood or MDF skirtings). But rarely isn't never

 

[Charlie George]

Look at the thread of the block paving he done, he made it worse!



Andy

Not that bad

 

[Keitai]

https://its.co.uk/pd/M18-FFN-502X-M...il-Gun-2-x-50Ah-Batteries-C_MILM18FFN502X.htm

https://www.toolden.co.uk/power-too...rushless-first-fix-angled-nail-gun-body-only/

So you'd recommend the dewalt one above if I'm not using it continuously due to cost and low maintenance.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I had a DCN692 as my personal 1st fix gun for about 5 years and a DCN660 (16ga) as my 2nd fix gun at the same time. For them to have lasted that long they can't have been that bad. Several of my colleagues also bought them (at one time we had 6 of them on the job - nobody was using Paslodes any longer)

I moved to Hikoki because I wanted to have 15, 16 and 18 gauge 2nd fix nailers plus a 1st fix gun all on the same battery system, but at the time DW didn't have either 15ga or 18ga on the market, but I had also found that the DW 16ga gun wouldn't deal with the dense mahogany-like timbers I had been installing on a previous commercial job (great for MDF, softwood an d some hardwoods, though). That left one choice back then, Hikoki, because Milwaukee didn't have a 1st fix gun either at the time, and their 1st generation 2nd fix guns were notorious for having issues (borrowed one and was singularly unimpressed with it - no wonder they redesigned them - DW on the other hand got their 1st gen 2nd fix guns right first time - I had a 16ga and 18ga 1st gen for a number of years and found them pretty bulletproof)

In any case, I thought you wanted a 2nd fix gun for skirtings and mouldings, or do I have that wrong? 1st fix is for framing, studwork, roof framing, etc. No use at all on 2nd fix type work

 

[Keitai]

I had a DCN692 as my personal 1st fix gun for about 5 years and a DCN660 (16ga) as my 2nd fix gun at the same time. For them to have lasted that long they can't have been that bad. Several of my colleagues also bought them (at one time we had 6 of them on the job - nobody was using Paslodes any longer)

I moved to Hikoki because I wanted to have 15, 16 and 18 gauge 2nd fix nailers plus a 1st fix gun all on the same battery system, but at the time DW didn't have either 15ga or 18ga on the market, but I had also found that the DW 16ga gun wouldn't deal with the dense mahogany-like timbers I had been installing on a previous commercial job (great for MDF, softwood an d some hardwoods, though). That left one choice back then, Hikoki, because Milwaukee didn't have a 1st fix gun either at the time, and their 1st generation 2nd fix guns were notorious for having issues (borrowed one and was singularly unimpressed with it - no wonder they redesigned them - DW on the other hand got their 1st gen 2nd fix guns right first time - I had a 16ga and 18ga 1st gen for a number of years and found them pretty bulletproof)

In any case, I thought you wanted a 2nd fix gun for skirtings and mouldings, or do I have that wrong? 1st fix is for framing, studwork, roof framing, etc. No use at all on 2nd fix type work

Both- so I'll get the Dewalt DSN692. Even if it cant put 90mm nails in I guess it's cheaper to maintain than Milwaukee and will do for fencing. Hoping to do site work at some point. I'll look to get 2nd fix when ive saved up.

I plugged and screwed the skirting and it pulled it in except one wall on plasterboard and I just used lots of caulk on that.

 

[HERTS P&D]

If in doubt, fill it with decorators caulk.

Do they mind your horse tied up outside?



Andy

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Both- so I'll get the Dewalt DSN692. Even if it cant put 90mm nails in...

Who said it can't put 90mm nails in? As I wrote:

I had a DCN692 as my personal 1st fix gun for about 5 years and a DCN660 (16ga) as my 2nd fix gun at the same time. For them to have lasted that long they can't have been that bad. Several of my colleagues also bought them (at one time we had 6 of them on the job...

Do you seriously think I'd have kept a 1st fix gun for 5 years had it not been able to sink 90mm nails? Below are test results made using a run-in gun sinking 90mm ring nails through CLS into layers of 18mm spruce plywood, first in sequential (one shot) mode:

followed by a bump fire mode, same 90mm ring nails, same sort of timber:

Note how each and every nail is sunk well under in both tests. Now tell me that a DCN692 can't sink 90mm ring nails.

I wrote a fairly comprehensive review on the DCN692 5+ years back, precisely because I was hacked off with reading or hearing BS opinions ot the tool from sm**heads, and I still stand by what I wrote then. There are also references in that review to the DCN660 I subsequently bought. I never did get round to writing a review for that, though...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Hoping to do site work at some point. I'll look to get 2nd fix when ive saved up.

Don't take this the wrong way, but in real terms you have next to no experience, and you have a very long way to go before you have enough skill, experience, knowledge or ability. On site nobody is going to nursemaid you - they'll just sack you if/when you can't do the job, or you screw something up, or are too slow, and nobody will be there to answer questions for you. It's a tough environment, kiddo.

In any case, do you have a blue (level 2) or gold (level 3) CSCS Site Carpenter's card? No. This is meant to show a minimum level of training and knowledge - and for a larger site, run by a responsible main contractor it's no CSCS card, no job. You know, these days even labourers have to do a 1-day training course before sitting the CSCS Health & Safety test to get their green cards (and don't even think about getting a green card and then working as a joiner - AFAIK that was banned in 2016/2017)

As an example`of work, take a look at this thread; TBH I've had 2nd year apprentices who could have done this job and known when to ask questions about the various gotchas (like that architrave the wrong way round, etc) if they weren't sure - but they'd have known to lift the carpet nail strips before starting (because leaving them in place is a health and safety hazard, plus it limits access to the bottom of the skirtings for fixings into the sole plate, as well as making it difficult to ensure that the skirting is bent/scribed to the floor, if necessary). They would also have done me neat, closed-up middle of wall mitre joins with no gaps (ever heard of Mitre Mate, or even just PVA glueing and nailing the mitres and sanding afterwards?) which didn't require a ton of filler, and they'd have put me TWO screws in, one above the other (a single screw as you have done isn't guaranteed to hold the skirting plumb or limit cupping)

This is extremely basic stuff that they get taught by the end of year 1 when they are with someone competent. And on the issue of site work a qualified man may have to put in 40 or more metres of skirting a day, including scribes and joins. Do you think you could do that? And do it well enough to get paid?

You might think I'm being harsh, but as a joinery foreman my job involves pushing the job along. On any job there simply isn't the time to deal with the untrained, unknowledgeable, slow or incapable (other than maybe the apprentices, and in their case it's because they are dirt cheap - many don't last). We often have a main contractor breathing down our necks with a QS (quantity surveyor) in tow who will pick-up every defect and use them as an excuse to withhold payment - so if someone isn't pulling their weight you warn them first, then if they don't improve quickly you fire them (let's call a spade a spade and say that I never "let people go"). Bear all this in mind if you are thinking about site work

I plugged and screwed the skirting and it pulled it in except one wall on plasterboard and I just used lots of caulk on that.

I notice you didn't ascertain what the wall was made from. FYI in order to get a fix you need to ascertain if it is dot and dab onto masonry (so long screws and plugs) or a stud wall (on which case locate the studs and sole plate). Caulking because you can't find a stud to fix to is a fail on an NVQ test.

Finally those screw holes need to be filled with 2-pack wood filler, mixed on a scrap of skirting/plywood/etc and applied with a flexible stopping knife. Once set hard (maybe 1 to 2 hours) you sand it back with a small sander such as a 1/4-sheet orbital sander, because you cannot hand sand 2-pack. Also see you bodged the filler around the architrave joint...

So how long did all this take you?

 

[HERTS P&D]

So let me get this straight Jk, are you saying Keitai, wouldn't get a job from you?



Andy