Small shop need homemade table lamps PAT tested

[mattylad]

John (both of you) it does not matter if the lamps are for sale or not, using them in the shop is still considered "placing on the market". You might not think that logical, but it's what the law says.

Stillp, can you please back this up with where in the legislation it says that using them in a shop is "placing them on the market" ? What law?

Having been part of a design team designing products for the market and having to meet the legislation I would like to know very much where the law says that simply using it in a shop meets the requirements of something being placed on the market.

 

[stillp]

Matty, this is one of those questions I should be able to answer "off the top of my head, but I've had a heavy day in the office and I can't!

Try the European Commission's Blue Book.

 

[stillp]

From the BIS guidance on the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations:

Using electrical equipment on your own premises
Electrical equipment that is intended for use by you in your own premises is controlled by the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994. Such equipment must satisfy the safety requirements of the regulations, but need not have CE marking.

However, should you subsequently decide to supply the equipment - eg by selling it or hiring it out - it will be subject to the relevant provisions of the regulations, including the CE marking requirements.

See https://www.gov.uk/electrical-equip...ing-electrical-equipment-on-your-own-premises

 

[stillp]

And from the latest draft of the proposed new version of the LVD:

(1) "placing on the market" means the first making available of electrical equipment on the Union market;
(2) "making available on the market" means any supply of electrical equipment for distribution, consumption or use on the Union market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge;

That would seem to clarify that home-made equipment for use at home is not placed on the market, but home-made equipment for use in a shop (aka 'commercial activity') is placed on the market even if free of charge and only for use in that shop.

 

[JohnW2]

(1) "placing on the market" means the first making available of electrical equipment on the Union market;
(2) "making available on the market" means any supply of electrical equipment for distribution, consumption or use on the Union market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge;
That would seem to clarify that home-made equipment for use at home is not placed on the market, but home-made equipment for use in a shop (aka 'commercial activity') is placed on the market even if free of charge and only for use in that shop.

I think I would probably want the opinion of an appropriate lawyer before being as sure as you seem. What you say about use in a shop seems to rely on the fact that 'providing to oneself for no charge' counts as 'supply' - and, without expert advice, I would not be at all confident that such would necessarily be the case in law.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

The Chinese seem to supply loads of electrical equipment for the UK market CE marked which is clearly non compliant so may as well copy them. Just cut out a sticker from some old equipment and stick it on the new stuff likely 100% safer than Chinese import.

 

[mattylad]

Personally I think that's a misreading of the law.

Using an appliance in a shop cannot be classed as placing it "on the market" as its not available for sale. It will require meeting the appropriate safety requirements but its not on the market.

What is in a "proposed" new version is not current legislation and hence can be ignored.

 

[Taylortwocities]

We've not had a peep since he/she posted the topic.

Looks like the OP has lost interest - I wonder why…..

 

[JohnW2]

Personally I think that's a misreading of the law. ... Using an appliance in a shop cannot be classed as placing it "on the market" as its not available for sale. It will require meeting the appropriate safety requirements but its not on the market.

Quite.

I think I would probably want the opinion of an appropriate lawyer before being as sure as you seem. What you say about use in a shop seems to rely on the fact that 'providing to oneself for no charge' counts as 'supply' - and, without expert advice, I would not be at all confident that such would necessarily be the case in law.

What is in a "proposed" new version is not current legislation and hence can be ignored.

To be fair to stillp, I presume that the draft of the new version is all that he had to hand on Friday evening and that, by implication, he knows/believes that the current legislation (which he didn't have access to when he wrote) says essentially/exactly the same. However, I obviously may be wrong.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

John, your final presumption is correct.

When I have time I shall dig out some evidence that 'providing to oneself for no charge' counts as 'supply' . It has been clarified, but I can't remember where!

 

[JohnW2]

We've not had a peep since he/she posted the topic. Looks like the OP has lost interest - I wonder why…..

True, but unlike many a situation of 'thread drift', I think that virtually all the complicated discussions which have taken place here are, or should be, of considerable interest/importance to the OP.

Surprising though I find it, if stillp is correct, then the OP might need a lot more than just 'PATesting' in order to be on the right side of the law if these lamps are to be used (but not sold) in a shop.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

An extract from the current edition of the "Guide to the implementation
of directives based on the New Approach and the Global Approach":
A product is placed on the Community market when it is made available for the first time. This is considered to take place when a product is transferred from the stage of manufacture with the intention of distribution or use on the Community market. Moreover, the concept of placing on the market refers to each individual product, not to a type of product, and whether it was manufactured as an individual unit or in series.
Please note the 2nd sentence of the extract. If you want more, the Guide can be freely downloaded from the Europa web site.

 

[JohnW2]

A product is placed on the Community market when it is made available for the first time. This is considered to take place when a product is transferred from the stage of manufacture with the intention of distribution or use on the Community market. Moreover, the concept of placing on the market refers to each individual product, not to a type of product, and whether it was manufactured as an individual unit or in series.Please note the 2nd sentence of the extract.

Thanks, but I still think I'd probably need the advice of a (specialised) lawyer before I would be sure how to interpret those words. I'm particularly unsure of what "use on the Community market" means.

One might suggest that if such legal advice is necessary to enable one to understand such a document, there is perhaps something less-than-ideal about the document.

If they really wanted the rules to apply to 'anything used within the EU', why not simply say so, rather than all this confusing (at least to me) talk about 'on the market'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

If they really wanted the rules to apply to 'anything used within the EU', why not simply say so, rather than all this confusing (at least to me) talk about 'on the market'?

It's perfectly clear to me and many others John. Your proposed wording would be less clear, and would apply to everything home-made, which earlier you seemed to be (rightly) objecting to. I believe the term "on the market" has been in use since the Treaty of Rome set up the "Common Market", but it might have been Maastricht. You (and others) might not want it to say what it says, but it does, and both Trading Standards and the HSE seem to understand it.
Try downloading the Guide, and if you don't like it or don't agree with it, write to your MEP.

 

[JohnW2]

If they really wanted the rules to apply to 'anything used within the EU', why not simply say so, rather than all this confusing (at least to me) talk about 'on the market'?

It's perfectly clear to me and many others John. Your proposed wording would be less clear, and would apply to everything home-made, which earlier you seemed to be (rightly) objecting to.

I'm pleased to hear that it's perfectly clear to some.

I truly don't fully understand. I think what is probably being said is that it does, indeed, apply to "anything 'home-made' " if that anything (even if only a unique one-off) is used in any sort of commercial premises within the EU, the only exception being if the item is used in non-commercial premises. Is that what is perfectly clear to you?

I believe the term "on the market" has been in use since the Treaty of Rome set up the "Common Market", but it might have been Maastricht. You (and others) might not want it to say what it says, but it does, and both Trading Standards and the HSE seem to understand it.

I'm not sure whether it is specific to this particular area but, looking at the rules in relation to medical devices (some of which documents I happen to have to hand), it appears to be being said that Article 2 of Directives 90/385/EEC, 93/42/EEC and 98/79/EC requires compliance with the relevant Directives not only if a product is "put onto the market" but also if it is "put into service" - which I personally find much clearer, and easier to understand. What I'm not sure of is whether that is specific to medical devices, or applies to everything - if the latter, it would obviously make the whole situation much clearer to me. Even I can understand what "put into service" means

Kind Regards, John