smart meter different enegy supplier

[stillp]

And don't forget, for every potential kW of wind energy, we have to install a kW of combined cycle gas turbine generation to run when the wind is too weak or too strong.

 

[stillp]

In real terms wind farms are a political move to generate work, it was never to generate power, just to generate work.

Also to make us a bit more independent from the Middle East when our own oil runs out.

 

[SimonH2]

Also to make us a bit more independent from the Middle East when our own oil runs out.

Which they don't really do.
As you point out, they require near enough 100% dispatchable backup which is going to be mostly gas turbine (and a bit of diesel !). So maybe not middle east, but still mostly comes from places we can't completely trust to remain friendly.

Now, if we built the "right sort of reactor" we have enough fuel already stockpiled in the UK to supply all our lecky needs for something like a century. Unfortunately thanks to the anti-nuclear lobby, using it as fuel rather that treating it as waste is politically unacceptable and so we are looking for ways to safely dispose of large quantities of this fuel having labelled it as waste !

A bit like how in the very early days of oil, they found that there was a certain fraction which if not removed would cause the oil lamps to explode. They would pour this removed fraction into a pit and set fire to it to dispose of it. Later someone worked out that it made good stuff to run the new fangled internal combustion engine with.

 

[ericmark]

Your correct nuclear is the only answer the fuel degrades with time so if not used now it will not be there in the future where coal and oil will.

 

[SimonH2]

Actually, the stuff we want out of it doesn't degrade very fast at all, so for practical purposes there's no rush.
But the problem is that to use it to its fullest means a fast breeder reactor, but for some reason people get even more uppity if you mention Plutonium. The Plutonium is then fuel for a different type of reactor.

 

[ericmark]

And don't forget, for every potential kW of wind energy, we have to install a kW of combined cycle gas turbine generation to run when the wind is too weak or too strong.

Not sure about combined cycle gas turbine as takes around 12 hours to reach full output and 24 hours to close down again. Even the high pressure water reactor is faster than that. The gas soon starts to generate but you don't get steam straight away and they need warming up slowly. The electric mountain is the answer. Some of the hydro power stations are over 100 years old and still running only the transformers have changed. The Glaslyn and Llyn LLydaw lakes in Snowdon powered a hydro power station built to supply the radio transmitter some where near Waunfawr the radio transmitter is long gone but the power station is still running. It looks like a church looking down from the A498.

The problem is how money is lent, interest on money means we have about a 30 year maximum investment over that there is really no gain. So although the Dinorwig power station built when I was just a lad (1972) fills the gaps when other stations can't it cost so much that only a government could build one, 1,728MW from standstill in just 90 seconds, now private but built in first place with public money. It was considered as the worlds biggest battery, when there is power to spare the water is pumped back up. As far as I know only one in UK, there are other hydro stations but that is only one which pumps it back up. It was built because the old nuclear stations took a long time to come on line and go off line again. But close enough to Liverpool bay (Really off Rhyl) to now be used with the wind farm.

They have been looking at Colwyn Bay for a lagoon as no rivers flow into it so it can also be used to store energy. The way to make them pay is to combine use with something else. Be it a road on top, a marina behind it, or other money making project. However there are always the dangers when the sea is held back of storms causing havoc. Prestatyn floods are a good example, the railway built a base to keep the line straight and fast back in the 1800's as a result the swamp behind the railway dried out and loads of single story houses were built ground not firm enough for two story houses. The the rail embankment gave way water entered the drains and although houses were sand bagged to keep water out it was to no avail as it came in through the loos. They tried to blame the railway for poor maintenance but they rightly said our embankment is for trains not to allow building behind it. And then to Welsh Water who said our recommendation for years has been to install one way valves, if you did not install them don't blame us. They may have told original owners but not those there at time of floods.

To have an integrated system needs government control to work out who pays for what.

 

[stillp]

Not sure about combined cycle gas turbine as takes around 12 hours to reach full output and 24 hours to close down again.

Usually less than an hour Eric. Can be started even faster but with some loss of efficiency.

 

[stillp]

http://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/po...plants/Fast_cycling_and_rapid_start-up_US.pdf

 

[SimonH2]

... Dinorwig power station built when I was just a lad (1972) fills the gaps when other stations can't it cost so much that only a government could build one, 1,728MW from standstill in just 90 seconds ...

Thats from standstill (actually Wikipedia says 75s). From spinning reserve - that's with the machine spinning but the turbine drained - it's 16s. That's impressive - 0 to 1.8GW in 16s.

At to startup times, open cycle gas turbine is much faster - and is much cheaper to build and operate. That's why there is, despite it's lower efficiency and hence higher per-unit fuel costs, a significant base of open cycle gas turbine plant. Another factor is that they are better suited to repeated starts and stops and rapid power changes - as in the effects are still there, but the simpler design means it's less costly to deal with. For plant that's going to be called on for rapid starts and stops, but only called on when the windmills stop, it has to be cheap to build and cheap to maintain otherwise it's not going to be economic to run at all. That's one of the hidden subsidies of wind - and AIUI there are payments being made to avoid some of these plants being closed down on economic grounds so as to maintain some semblance of available capacity.

 

[stillp]

Dinorwig usually has one of the four turbines spinning but drained. When they need to use that one to generate, they use the air displaced by the water flow to spin up the next turbine. When the second one's needed, they spin up the last two.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... Dinorwig power station built when I was just a lad (1972) fills the gaps when other stations can't it cost so much that only a government could build one, 1,728MW from standstill in just 90 seconds ...

Thats from standstill (actually Wikipedia says 75s). From spinning reserve - that's with the machine spinning but the turbine drained - it's 16s. That's impressive - 0 to 1.8GW in 16s.

Impressive, indeed, and good to visit.

But it's a bit like a drag racer - incredible acceleration, but it can't keep going for long.

 

[ericmark]

The special Siemens plants may be now able to start quickly but the GEC one I worked on would not respond well to such spot demands. Moving from 50 MW to 400 MW may be reasonably fast but from zero to 400 MW that's another thing. There are 4 x 650 MW generators installed around 2000 and they need the oil pressure before they start and when I was there during the commissioning stage the vanes of the turbine are loose unit heated up so putting one on line is not fast. At least if you still want to be able to use it next week.

 

[SimonH2]

Impressive, indeed, and good to visit.

It is indeed. It's a lot of years since I last went there.

But it's a bit like a drag racer - incredible acceleration, but it can't keep going for long.

Exactly, which is why anyone should take with not a pinch of salt but the entire packet ... claims by the renewables brigade that all we need is another Dinorwig or two

... if you still want to be able to use it next week.

And that is the issue. Most of the plant currently installed does not like the thermal stresses from rapid starts and/or rapid load changes. It's not that they can't do them, but it adds significantly to the wear and tear on the plant and that manifests itself in increased maintenance costs. Open cycle are a bit better in that respect, but mostly gain from being cheaper plant in the first place.

I think we should push for every provider to offer a "green" tariff - but along with it comes the need for a remotely switchable meter and intermittent supplies. I wonder how many people would be in favour of windmills then

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Most of the plant currently installed does not like the thermal stresses from rapid starts and/or rapid load changes. It's not that they can't do them, but it adds significantly to the wear and tear on the plant and that manifests itself in increased maintenance costs.

A bit like the way the launch control systems in BMW M# cars limit how many times in quick succession you can try to scare impress your mates....

 

[ericmark]

I remember the Winter of discontent and how every house took turns in having power. Dad was really upset as he worked at a private power station all day and they had no limit to fuel used, however it was multi-fuel coal, blast furnace gas, coke oven gas, or oil. We it seems took it from the Germans in repletion after the war, sorry not sure which war. But it used what would be waste first and only when that was not there did it use oil, although could use coal it never did, as a lad I thought may dad worked at a large power station but it seems it was only 12 MW Sizewell has 12 diesel generators at 0.5 MW each so it produced just double the stand-by power from Sizewell 'B' many generators 2 x 750 MW.

At one time many manufacturers would have their own generators tied to the grid, Steel, and Glass in the main. And they would also use waste heat boilers to generate some of the steam. A power station superintendent actually controlled power, be it air, steam, hot water, gas or electric it was all controlled from the power station. The blast furnace manager would need to talk to the power station manager to time when services were required. And the power station manager would talk to national grid there was a lot of give and take.

However having to phone up before using a MW is one thing, phoning to ask if you can use a kW is something else. I can see how with storage heating some central power station can control when the heaters get their heat, but not when you can use the lights. So unless you went back to the old idea of separate supply for lights and power it would not work. When we did have separate supplies people cheated and used the cheaper lighting power for things like their smoothing iron I would think we would get the same again, but the old iron was 600W the new irons are 1200W and wireless in use. Can't see going back would work?