Speedfit or traditional copper?

[Softus]

Softus must work for Hep, JG or be sponsored.

None of the above.

However, I do work for "Think With Your Head And Use Some F***ing Common Sense Limited".

As a result of its rigorous Quality Management Programme Hepworth Building Products offer a 50 year guarantee against defects in materials or manufacturing of all Hep2O® pipe and fittings.” ( my underlining ).

Somewhat more restrictive?

You've lost me. What did you think that a guarantee meant before you read the Hepworth web site?

If the product meets the spec., what grounds would there be for a claim under such a guarantee ?

Again, I have no idea what you're getting at.

I've been to repair an installation where the grab wedge failed, but it had been installed by an idiot with a hacksaw anyway. If the grab wedge had been the sole cause of leaking water onto two flats below, then Hepworth could have had a claim on their hands.

 

[Corgigrouch]

Plastics are used extensively in engineering these days, if you look under the bonnet of your vans you may well see plastic manifolds, sump pans, radiator end caps, even the tyres are man made, how much abuse do they tolerate as we bump up and down kerbs?... My point is that plastics have come a long way since they were first introduced and I am confident that they will last as long as copper... Copper has its own weaknesses, so I would say it is purely down to personal preference

I wonder if the same debate was held when copper was replacing lead?

 

[Softus]

It's personal preference if you're so cavalier that you put aesthetics at a higher priority than doing the longest-lasting job at the best price for the customer.

Since most customers paint their pipework anyway, having luvverly shiny copper and pristinely soldered joints is all well and good, but if it comes at the cost of twice as much labour and more than half as much in materials, then who are you really satisfying?

At this it's pretty usual for people who have no reasoned argument to label me as a plastic-lover, but I don't have a preference for copper or plastic, merely for using the right material at the time, taking all things into account.

 

[stardanny]

I used copper for bathroom fit, it look neat. I only used plastic pipe for inaccess area. I remember a long ago there was plastic fitting call Durapipe, still stocked, there was some for a block of flats near me have problem with burst pipes, I recommeded have it replace with copper, about 750 metres, it cost more than plastic. Also acorn fitting which I understand has been no longer made? so how long will speedfit and hep will stocked? copper pipe has been for what? 70 years?

Dan.

 

[Softus]

I remember a long ago there was plastic fitting call Durapipe, still stocked, there was some for a block of flats near me have problem with burst pipes

Durapipe did not live up to its name.

Also acorn fitting which I understand has been no longer made?

The "Acorn" is one of the range of Hep2o fittings.

so how long will speedfit and hep will stocked?

I don't understand your question.

copper pipe has been for what? 70 years?

Are you saying that we shouldn't use plastic pipe and fittings in case they stops being made sometime in the future? If so, what's your reasoning there?

 

[bungarm]

Wow thanks guys..didn't expect so many replies or to cause a bit of controversy! sorry!

It might help if I ask specific questions maybe?

One thing that we think plastic might have the edge over copper is laying pipework alongside joists in a very long run from front to back of house (for radiators) It seems reasonable to assume that the less joints in this run in particular would be better, so the plastic wins there, BUT can the pipe be laid directly on top of the ceiling below? I am assuming not since they (Hepworth) recommend clipping their product to the joist(s) every 30cm or so, also the fact that the ceiling might well be covered with all sorts of sh*t that might damage the plastic. (think I've answered me own question there...!)

How secure are the tap connectors say in a washbasin? Do the taps eventually work loose as someone told me in the past?

If we did go for the plastic, would you guys recommend that we pipe up the rads in 10mm which we would do in copper, or do them all in 15mm?

We know about the 1m length of 22mm copper required to go into the boiler in every case, but are there any other instances where copper only is allowed? I'm thinking of the pipe straight out of the stopcock inside the house, which incidently is still onto lead from the street side.

Any info gratefully received...and many thanks for taking the time to advise me so far! You guy are the tops...

 

[Softus]

One thing that we think plastic might have the edge over copper is laying pipework alongside joists in a very long run from front to back of house (for radiators) It seems reasonable to assume that the less joints in this run in particular would be better, so the plastic wins there, BUT can the pipe be laid directly on top of the ceiling below?

I wouldn't recommend doing that.

I am assuming not since they (Hepworth) recommend clipping their product to the joist(s) every 30cm or so, also the fact that the ceiling might well be covered with all sorts of sh*t that might damage the plastic. (think I've answered me own question there...!)

The way out of that problem is to push the pipework into its insulation and then feed it under the floorboards. The insulation protects the pipe and also supports it. You can then knock staples into the joist and cable tie the pipework to the staples. Quick, easy, cheap, and effective.

How secure are the tap connectors say in a washbasin?

Do you mean the Hepworth and John Guest tap connectors with push-fit sockets? If so, then they're better than the compression equivalent in many installations because they permit the pipe/tube to turn without tending to undo the tap connector.

Do the taps eventually work loose as someone told me in the past?

No. I don't know who told you that, or why they said it.

If we did go for the plastic, would you guys recommend that we pipe up the rads in 10mm which we would do in copper, or do them all in 15mm?

Do you have a reason for not using 15mm pipework?

We know about the 1m length of 22mm copper required to go into the boiler in every case, but are there any other instances where copper only is allowed?

I would avoid plastic where it's foreseeable that there might be high environmental temperatures, because of the coefficient of expansion and because its upper temperature operating limit is lower than that of copper.

I'm thinking of the pipe straight out of the stopcock inside the house, which incidently is still onto lead from the street side.

I can't think of a reason not to use Hep2o/Speedfit out of the main stopcock, and I've done so many times. However, it creates a difficulty for main equipotential bonding, since you can't connect an earth strap to plastic pipe.

 

[stardanny]

I remember a long ago there was plastic fitting call Durapipe, still stocked, there was some for a block of flats near me have problem with burst pipes

Durapipe did not live up to its name.

Also acorn fitting which I understand has been no longer made?

The "Acorn" is one of the range of Hep2o fittings.

so how long will speedfit and hep will stocked?

I don't understand your question.

copper pipe has been for what? 70 years?

Are you saying that we shouldn't use plastic pipe and fittings in case they stops being made sometime in the future? If so, what's your reasoning there?

Ah I see, I'll put it in my little note.

Erm...what if, it no longer made? I remember there was blue hard plastic pipe, which was no longer made.

I'm just saying that all plastic and copper pipes are the same size, 15mm, 22mm, 28mm and they are. So it would be easier to retro fit with future fitting.

Sorry, had to re-edit, a mistake.

 

[Softus]

so how long will speedfit and hep will stocked?

I don't understand your question.

Erm...what if, it no longer made? I remember there was blue hard plastic pipe, which was no longer made.

Presumably you've stopped buying it then.

copper pipe has been for what? 70 years?

Are you saying that we shouldn't use plastic pipe and fittings in case they stops being made sometime in the future? If so, what's your reasoning there?

I'm just saying that all plastic and copper pipes are the same size

They are if they're manufactured to the same British and/or European standard (BS2871?).

 

[Doctor Drivel]

7. The only problems I ever see with plastic are caused by a poor installation. This includes failing to check for faulty components such as grab wedges that don't grab. If you follow the MIs, then this cannot happen.

I have seen them fail for no apparent reason. Some fittings just shoot off the pipe. Others fail after many, many months. Use compression joints on the plastic pipe. Avoid push-fit.

 

[mikej2005]

If we did go for the plastic, would you guys recommend that we pipe up the rads in 10mm which we would do in copper, or do them all in 15mm?

When I replaced my central heating system last year, I used copper upstairs (22mm and 10mm microbore) and plastic downstairs (22mm and 15mm SpeedFit).

I used plastic downstairs purely for convenience, because I've got exposed floorboards so didn't want to start taking too many boards up - the plastic was far easier to work with in the narrow crawl-space beneath the house.

The plastic SpeedFit tubing has a narrower bore than the equivalent copper so I went for 15mm, as 10mm was just too narrow for my liking.

 

[Doctor Drivel]

there was metion of always using barrier pipe previously HOWEVER Hep20 did independant tests to prove that there product was good after British Gas refused to have it on the 3 star contract. the tests came back saying that if properly installed, flushed and inhibited that the NON barrier pipe was a superior product.....they did not believe the results and carried them out a second time, which confirmed the first set.

Superior product? In what way?

 

[Crystal]

deleted

 

[bungarm]

Again, thanks for all the replies and advice...believe me it has been EXTREMELY helpful...you guys rock!

So, just one more question then, the $64000 one...what would you guys use in your own home if you were installing a new central heating system from scratch? plastic or copper?

 

[Doctor Drivel]

Again, thanks for all the replies and advice...believe me it has been EXTREMELY helpful...you guys rock!

So, just one more question then, the $64000 one...what would you guys use in your own home if you were installing a new central heating system from scratch? plastic or copper?

Copper with soldered joints. Plastic in the garage where it can freeze.