Speedfit or traditional copper?

[bungarm]

Hi guys...have done a search before posting on here for info on this, but found nothing.

We have almost decided to use plastic speedfit-type tubing for putting in a completely new central heating system in the house we just bought (very old very run down and at the moment, uninhabitable 1900's 3 bed end terrace)

I say almost decided, because plastic tubing is something we have never used before, always used copper in the past (this is not the first house we have completely re-plumbed)

We've looked on loads of websites for info on speedfit/hep2o etc, and everyone seems to give it the thumbs up, and it does seem a lot cheaper, not to mention quicker and easier to use than the copper....so, my question is, what do you guys think of pushfit plumbing? Are there any pitfalls that other websites don't tell you about?

...would REALLY appreciate you guys' opinions!! cheers!

PS I should say, it will be 'traditional' sort of central heating with radiators, not underfloor heating.

 

[fitz1]

When a joint is properly soldered it can last say 50 years. Yet to see how long that little silicone rubber lasts in a pushfit.

 

[petit_pablo]

I personally would always use copper for pipe work. Ive not got much faith the long term strength of plastic fittings.

This is a personal view though, i cant back up my dislike of plastic with facts!

 

[wiggikins]

Have seen 35 year old Acorn fittings still in good nick two weeks ago!

 

[Softus]

1. You can use plastic pipe without using push-fit fittings, if you want to.

2. You can use push-fit fittings without using plastic pipe, if you want to.

3. If you use plastic pipe on central heating circuits, make sure it's barrier pipe.

4. If you use plastic pipe AND pushfit fittings anywhere, DO NOT SCRATCH OR SCORE OR GRAZE OR SCUFF THE PIPE. EVER.

5. Hepworth guarantee their products for 50 years, if it has been correctly installed.

6. Personally, for demountability, I prefer Hep2o to Speedfit.

7. The only problems I ever see with plastic are caused by a poor installation. This includes failing to check for faulty components such as grab wedges that don't grab. If you follow the MIs, then this cannot happen.

8. I see plenty of copper tubing failing at less than 50 years. I can't remember any copper cylinder that has lasted that length of time. Copper is good, and hygienic, and rigid, and strong, and pretty, but it can and does wear out.

9. You can 'cable' plastic pipe in a way that you can't with copper - very handy when replacing any significant lengths of run.
_______________

In the end the choice is yours, but don't go thinking that plastic seems easy and that you can't make mistakes. The pitfalls are very commonplace, and therefore easily avoided, but most often the people who criticise it are the ones who have very little knowledge of it.

Once again - NEVER let your plastic pipe come into contact with anything that can damage it.

 

[Corgigrouch]

If I'm working on an existing system in copper then I pipe in copper..Copper and plastic together just looks pants. My preference is for Speedfit...You can run long lengths with no joints under the floor ...so less potential for leaks where you can't get to them... Since all plastic has a thicker wall you will always have less flow and if you try to surface mount it it expands like crazy. Don't forget that most boiler manufacturers do require that the first length of pipe is in copper (Normally 1000mm) But all in all plastic would be my choice.

 

[corgiman]

Plastic where you cannot see, copper where you can

I like old grouchy dont mind Placcy pipe but hate looking at it

 

[Softus]

Since all plastic has a thicker wall you will always have less flow...

Hm.

Which of the following is more restrictive:

a) A 6 metre length of Hep2o barrier pipe, with no fittings needed;

b) A 6 metre run of copper tubing, with, say, 1 soldered coupling, 2 pulled bends, 2 soldered elbows, and 2 brass elbows.

 

[superdupergasman]

In my house it is fully copper!!

I have seen too many plastic fittings pop apart in million pound mansions to trust it.

I would however at a push use plastic pipe and compression fitttings as long as the proper inserts were utilised.

there was metion of always using barrier pipe previously HOWEVER Hep20 did independant tests to prove that there product was good after British Gas refused to have it on the 3 star contract. the tests came back saying that if properly installed, flushed and inhibited that the NON barrier pipe was a superior product.....they did not believe the results and carried them out a second time, which confirmed the first set.

Copper 99 times out of 100 but in the hard to reach places platsic with normal compression fittings!

 

[Softus]

In my house it is fully copper!

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that you have at least one brass fitting somewhere.

I have seen too many plastic fittings pop apart in million pound mansions to trust it.

Please supply more details:

1. Brand.
2. Type.
3. Tubing material.
4. Whether or not installed according to MIs.
5. Cause of failure.

there was metion of always using barrier pipe previously HOWEVER Hep20 did independant tests to prove that there product was good after British Gas refused to have it on the 3 star contract. the tests came back saying that if properly installed, flushed and inhibited that the NON barrier pipe was a superior product.....they did not believe the results and carried them out a second time, which confirmed the first set.

Reference for that test please.

Copper 99 times out of 100 but in the hard to reach places platsic with normal compression fittings!

I see. When the going gets tough you abandon your principle of not trusting the product?

Or is platsic just better than plastic?

 

[Corgigrouch]

Since all plastic has a thicker wall you will always have less flow...

Hm.

Which of the following is more restrictive:

a) A 6 metre length of Hep2o barrier pipe, with no fittings needed;

b) A 6 metre run of copper tubing, with, say, 1 soldered coupling, 2 pulled bends, 2 soldered elbows, and 2 brass elbows.

Hmmm, Fair comment.. I was only thinking in terms of pipe diameter

 

[superdupergasman]

Does Softus have a hangover this morning??

I have seen both speed fit and Hep20 go pop and yes they were correctly fitted on both copper and plastic pipe and the usuall chrome pipe school boy error.

There are some applications where plastic is the only sensible solution, particularly retro fit and an example would be where there is no room underfloors to feed lengths of copper under.

I'm only trying to help but getting slagged for my opinion does not look good for the person who posted the thread.

P.S. yes I have a couple of brass fittings, but on the heating its only the last connections onto the boiler.

 

[Softus]

I have seen both speed fit and Hep20 go pop and yes they were correctly fitted on both copper and plastic pipe...

So quantify your observations: how many times, and out of how many installations?

...and the usuall chrome pipe school boy error.

Installer error then.

There are some applications where plastic is the only sensible solution, particularly retro fit and an example would be where there is no room underfloors to feed lengths of copper under.

I completely agree. And in some places you can't even get spanners in to make on a compression joint. So presumably you'd install nothing in that scenario, rather than a product that you say you cannot trust.

I'm only trying to help but getting slagged for my opinion does not look good for the person who posted the thread.

The OP is looking for objective opinion. If your opinion is merely subjective, then how can it be valued? And please show me where you've been slagged off.

P.S. yes I have a couple of brass fittings, but on the heating its only the last connections onto the boiler.

So I'd have made money on that bet, if anyone had taken it up.

And now I'm willing to bet even more money that you have brass fittings elsewhere.

 

[superdupergasman]

There are some applications where plastic is the only sensible solution, particularly retro fit and an example would be where there is no room underfloors to feed lengths of copper under.

I completely agree. And in some places you can't even get spanners in to make on a compression joint. So presumably you'd install nothing in that scenario, rather than a product that you say you cannot trust.

I have used plastic pipe and the fittings, just take my time and make sure its right....but not in my own house!

For the DIYer plastic may be the correct move as it easyer, quicker and you have less chance of doing a campden market!

Softus must work for Hep, JG or be sponsored!!!

 

[Crystal]

Setting aside any preference for copper or plastic.

5. Hepworth guarantee their products for 50 years, if it has been correctly installed.

What Hepworth actually state on their website is

“Hep2O® has a design life expectancy of 50 years, which is based upon the operating conditions given in Table No. 1.

As a result of its rigorous Quality Management Programme Hepworth Building Products offer a 50 year guarantee against defects in materials or manufacturing of all Hep2O® pipe and fittings.” ( my underlining ).

Somewhat more restrictive?

If the product meets the spec., what grounds would there be for a claim under such a guarantee ?