Spurs - Radial - Ring

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Morning all,

I'm competent installing electrics.. and understand that rings can have one spur or multiple after a FCU.. and radials can have as many spurs as you want really.

But.. my brain is having an off day and can't get my head around the reason why this is so.. can someone explain in easy terms for me ?

Thanks all

Mark
 
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and understand that rings can have one spur or multiple after a FCU.. and radials can have as many spurs as you want really.
You have used the wrong word. There is no limit on the number of spurs.

A spur is only allowed one socket without the FCU and when the cable is 2.5mm².
This socket may be a double socket (the limiting it to one single socket does not make sense) so, two 13A loads could be plugged in and the likely 2.5mm² cable used is rated at 27A therefore it cannot be overloaded.

More than one socket is supposed to have the FCU to also limit the current on the spur; unfortunately 13A is the maximum fuse size in an FCU.

Of course, you could use 4mm² cable for the spur, then it would be capable of carrying the 32A so no restrictions or limit.


The same rules apply to Rings or Radials.
 
You have used the wrong word. There is no limit on the number of spurs.

A spur is only allowed one socket without the FCU and when the cable is 2.5mm².
This socket may be a double socket (the limiting it to one single socket does not make sense) so, two 13A loads could be plugged in and the likely 2.5mm² cable used is rated at 27A therefore it cannot be overloaded.

More than one socket is supposed to have the FCU to also limit the current on the spur; unfortunately 13A is the maximum fuse size in an FCU.

Of course, you could use 4mm² cable for the spur, then it would be capable of carrying the 32A so no restrictions or limit.


The same rules apply to Rings or Radials.


Ahhhh okay.. so sockets on a 20a radial with 2.5mm cable can have as many spurs of a socket on 2.5mm as its rated approx 27a and the breaker will trip before the cable gets too hot?
 
Ahhhh okay.. so sockets on a 20a radial with 2.5mm cable can have as many spurs of a socket on 2.5mm as its rated approx 27a and the breaker will trip before the cable gets too hot?
Yes. (I think I know what you mean)

There aren't really any specific rules governing spurs. As long as the cable cannot be overloaded then you can treat it like any other circuit.

Only examples of some methods for spurs are shown in the regulations so people think that is all that may be done.
 
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Would this configuration still satisfy?
16470113238207716545980424764954.jpg
 
Yes, and 25A would be alright - or 32A with 4mm² cable.


Just to clarify, the cable is the spur. Some people call an FCU a spur or possibly even the socket.
 
When I started a radial was a supply radiating out from an over current device so a FCU would supply radials, but the wording seemed to change and they are now called fused spurs, a supply from a FCU is a circuit, however since a ring final is the final circuit, you can't have any more circuits from a final circuit so supplies from a FCU are not considered as circuits, at least if supplied from a ring final, since a radial is simply called a radial it could I suppose have a further circuit, but we don't consider it as such.

But at the end of the day it is all about stopping over load, so a 4 mm² or 2 x 2.5 mm² can take 32 amp, but a single 2.5 mm² can only take 20 amp depending on type of cable and the way it is installed to allow cooling.

A 13 amp socket can only supply 13 amp (except in a hospital) as there is a 13 amp fuse in the plug, so if supplying a single BS 1363 device it should be limited to 13 amp, as to why a double socket is permitted and two single sockets are not I have never worked out, I was told is was because you can tell if socket is part of a ring final or not when supplied with 2.5 mm² cable by how many cables, but that is clearly not true as could be a 20 amp radial.

To my mind we check if a ring by testing continuity between the pair of cables, and size of overload supplying it. So have not idea why a double socket is allowed on an unfused spur with 2.5 mm² cable. Or how it is permitted to market a double socket with a combined rating of 13 amp, it seems wrong, one would expect a double socket to take 26 amp. However there are double sockets, in the main specials like filtered sockets, where the combined rating is only 13 amp.

The system was developed during WW2 to assist with re-build after the war, but at that time the cable was around 3 mm² as an imperial size, 7/0.029 also the heat distribution was better as the line pin was solid brass and could conduct heat into the socket better than today with a necked pin with insulation over the necked part. Also brown radiators heat better than white old plugs/sockets were bakelite so black or brown.

Mineral insulated cable can be 1.5 mm² for a ring final but ali-tube cable has to be 2.5 mm² yet both seem to have same current carrying spec and temperature range. OK in real terms mineral insulated can run hotter, but not sure the terminations would take the heat?

So I can see the problems, and in a concrete factory i.e. all electrical work done by an electrician no DIY permitted, I found a 4 mm² radial which had been extended half way down the run with 2.5 mm² cable, the person doing it had clearly thought it was a ring final, and had not checked for continuity.

This is why filling in the minor works certificate is good, as it forces one to test so details can be entered on the certificate.

To extend a ring or radial one needs to test to show the loop impedance had not been exceeded to comply with both volt drop and ability to open or rupture the MCB/RCBO or fuse, but I have met electricians who did not have a loop impedance meter, or low ohmmeter so can't see how they tested?
 
... but a single 2.5 mm² can only take 20 amp depending on type of cable and the way it is installed to allow cooling.
...
A 13 amp socket can only supply 13 amp (except in a hospital) as there is a 13 amp fuse in the plug, so if supplying a single BS 1363 device it should be limited to 13 amp, as to why a double socket is permitted and two single sockets are not I have never worked out
A single socket is rated for 13A, a double socket is rated for 20A total - not 26A. But since a 2.5 T&E is rated up to 27A in some of the commonest installation methods, it really doesn't make sense to not allow 2 single sockets. Perhaps there's an argument that writing the regs to allow 2 singles subject to blah, blah, blah would make the regs too difficult for a typical DIYer (or significant numbers of supposedly competent electricians I suspect) to understand.
A bit like the advice that you shouldn't daisy chain extensions leads. Clearly, with small loads, there's no problem building s significant tree with many sockets - but try explaining to the sort of user who doesn't comprehend the difference in load between a phone charger and a fan heater, easier to stick to the "don't do X" simple description :rolleyes:
 
A single socket is rated for 13A, a double socket is rated for 20A total - not 26A.
Not that one again :)

BS1363 only requires double sockets to be tested at 20A in order to be BS1362-compliant, but that in no way precludes the manufacturer producing one (and hence 'rating' it) for a current greater than 20A. As always asked, how do you interpret (in terms of a double socket) this 'rating' per MK catalogues? ...

upload_2022-3-13_18-25-7.png


I suspect that it probably is intended to mean that the 'rating' is 2 x 13A (=26A). It might mean that the rating (total current through both outlets) is 13A. ... but I can't see how it could be read to be indicating a 'rating' of 20A, can you? [also, if it meant "13A total" for a double socket, why the specific comment about 3-gang ones?]

Kind Regards, John
 
I do see your point, of making it simple, the cable used for a ring final needs to be installed to take 20 amp or more, but near to the consumer unit any branch can take well over 20 amp, the simple answer seems to be having any non portable equipment on a dedicated supply, but this is in the appendix not the main body of the regulations.
 
I do see your point, of making it simple, the cable used for a ring final needs to be installed to take 20 amp or more, but near to the consumer unit any branch can take well over 20 amp ....
As you know BS7671 itself (not just guidelines in Appendices') requires the designer of a ring to ensure that any such 'overload of any part of the cable' is "unlikely" (whatever that means).

Kind Regards, John
 

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