Structural Ply bathroom flooring

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I gutted my whole bathroom for a refit and that included removing the rotten floorboards and also adding noggins between the floor joists. I was meant to buy 18mm WBP, hired a van and went down to local Wickes only to find it was not in stock. So in a rush, I decided to go for the 18mm structural Ply instead.

I wanted to know if I am likely to have problems in the future for not using WBP instead?

Thanks!
 
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No, go ahead and use what you've got. ( pse. dont use sheds use local timber yards). Screw down with 70-75mm x #8 screws.
If the boards were rotted are the joist tops sound?
Do you intend to tile over the ply?
 
No, go ahead and use what you've got. ( pse. dont use sheds use local timber yards). Screw down with 70-75mm x #8 screws.
If the boards were rotted are the joist tops sound?
Do you intend to tile over the ply?

Never use 75mm screws. 50mm maximum. preferably 45mm.
Tim does rhyme, but what with. :D
 
No, go ahead and use what you've got. ( pse. dont use sheds use local timber yards). Screw down with 70-75mm x #8 screws.
If the boards were rotted are the joist tops sound?
Do you intend to tile over the ply?

Hi Tim, I shall be buying all my timber from local yards from now on as I have been so disappointed with the number of cracked or badly twisted timber. Also found the staff very rude over the phone!

The joists were okay, though a bit mouldy. 50/50 solution of bleach and a lot of scrubbing sorted it. I also reinforced by adding noggins throughout the whole bathroom. Also gave a couple of coats of preserver on the underside of the ply. The floor is now rock solid.

For the time being, I shall lay 4mm hardboard and just fit lino. I do intend to tile it say in 6 months time.
 
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Is your structural ply classified as exterior grade or waterproof? WBP (Weather & Boil Proof) uses waterproof adhesives to bond the plies. You need to check the specification of your ply, if it’s not exterior grade/waterproof, it’s not suitable as a tile base.

18mm WBP is the minimum for tiling, it can be enough in most cases but it depends on your joist pitch/size/span. Ply floors being tiled should be acrylic primed on the underside (not the tile base) & edges before laying; avoid board joints in the middle of the room; support longest edges down the centre line of a joist & provide suitable support noggins on all cross joist joints; fix into the joists every 150-200mm max.

There are many things to catch you out particularly if you intend tiling a suspended timber floor. I would advise you read the Tiling Sticky & Forum Archive posts before doing any more work or buying materials, it could prevent you making disastrous & potentially expensive mistakes. It’s also important to use only quality trade tilling materials of the correct type for your tiles & tile base; cheapo own brand & DIY stuff is mostly crap.
 
1. i mentioned 70-75mm x #8 screws when i meant 60-75mm x #8 screws. Good call Bigboi.

The reason for the long length is that Bigboi has the floor up and can see where he is screwing down, thus avoiding pipes and cables. And, given the "pulling-up" power of sheet materials esp. below tile thin-set adhesive, long screws give a little insurance.
And, as Richard says, prepping the board is a sound, and necessary practice.

2. WBP is not necessary in my opinion - if moisture gets behind the tile then, sooner or later, the board is gone, no matter the rating. I speak from my own experience FWIW in ripping-out bathrooms and kitchens. As a matter of interest, the most aggressive swelling that i encountered was in water damaged WBP compared even to chipboard or OSB - go figure.

I also agree with Richard, that say 22mm board would be the best sub-floor, but Bigboi already has the mats. and in a bathroom area it will fly.

FWIW Bigboi, be cautious about laying h/board over the ply. Depending on what it's laid under it could give you difficulties with FFL (finished floor level) if you later tile over. Think seriously about your future plans for the final FFL. Perhaps drop a loose lay of cheap, vinyl sheet over the ply for now
 
12. WBP is not necessary in my opinion - if moisture gets behind the tile then, sooner or later, the board is gone, no matter the rating.
I agree but WBP is the spec. for a ply tile base & has as much to do with the water used in the cement adhesive & grout affecting the ply bond than water getting behind the tiles. It’s the BS & Tiling Association spec & a requirement of all adhesive manufacturers I know of. Use standard ply & they won’t honour the warranty; for the relatively small price difference compared to tile failure, it’s not worth the risk. Waterproof adhesive & grout is only waterproof in the sense it won’t disintegrate when exposed to water, apart from epoxy, it’s not impervious to water.

I also agree with Richard, that say 22mm board would be the best sub-floor, but Bigboi already has the mats. and in a bathroom area it will fly.
Again, the BS, Tiling Association & adhesive manufacturer’s specification for a ply floor tile base 25mm WBP. For light use/load areas such as bath/shower rooms, 18mm is sufficient in most cases but, as I said, it does depend on floor joist size/pitch/span.

FWIW Bigboi, be cautious about laying h/board over the ply. Depending on what it's laid under it could give you difficulties with FFL (finished floor level) if you later tile over.
I took it to mean the OP would be removing the hardboard before tiling; don’t even think about tiling over the hardboard!

FWIW, I also speak from considerable experience in bath/shower room construction & general property renovation works. You would not believe the state of some I rip out, both pasteboard walls & chip floors, particularly where moisture resistant products have not been used but even these will fail eventually.
 
Is your structural ply classified as exterior grade or waterproof? WBP (Weather & Boil Proof) uses waterproof adhesives to bond the plies. You need to check the specification of your ply, if it’s not exterior grade/waterproof, it’s not suitable as a tile base.

18mm WBP is the minimum for tiling, it can be enough in most cases but it depends on your joist pitch/size/span. Ply floors being tiled should be acrylic primed on the underside (not the tile base) & edges before laying; avoid board joints in the middle of the room; support longest edges down the centre line of a joist & provide suitable support noggins on all cross joist joints; fix into the joists every 150-200mm max.

There are many things to catch you out particularly if you intend tiling a suspended timber floor. I would advise you read the Tiling Sticky & Forum Archive posts before doing any more work or buying materials, it could prevent you making disastrous & potentially expensive mistakes. It’s also important to use only quality trade tilling materials of the correct type for your tiles & tile base; cheapo own brand & DIY stuff is mostly crap.

Hi Richard,
this is the actual product: http://www.wickes.co.uk/structural-spruce-plywood/invt/110036/

I do not think it is exterior grade....? But does mention "If used externally then all faces and edges should be treated with an appropriate preserver to prolong lifespan".........

The size of the floor is L: 2.65m x W: 1.60m, 45cm joist centres. I used 5x2 C16 timber as noggins and fixed 4 on each row. The ply is screwed down every 20cm along the joists and a couple through each noggins.

The joint is across the middle, running width wise! I did have acrylic sealer, but did not use that. I gave a couple of coats of timber preserver on the underside and edges.

If I was to tile can I not just lay 4/6mm WBP or maybe some type of tile backer?
 
1. i mentioned 70-75mm x #8 screws when i meant 60-75mm x #8 screws. Good call Bigboi.

The reason for the long length is that Bigboi has the floor up and can see where he is screwing down, thus avoiding pipes and cables. And, given the "pulling-up" power of sheet materials esp. below tile thin-set adhesive, long screws give a little insurance.
And, as Richard says, prepping the board is a sound, and necessary practice.

2. WBP is not necessary in my opinion - if moisture gets behind the tile then, sooner or later, the board is gone, no matter the rating. I speak from my own experience FWIW in ripping-out bathrooms and kitchens. As a matter of interest, the most aggressive swelling that i encountered was in water damaged WBP compared even to chipboard or OSB - go figure.

I also agree with Richard, that say 22mm board would be the best sub-floor, but Bigboi already has the mats. and in a bathroom area it will fly.

FWIW Bigboi, be cautious about laying h/board over the ply. Depending on what it's laid under it could give you difficulties with FFL (finished floor level) if you later tile over. Think seriously about your future plans for the final FFL. Perhaps drop a loose lay of cheap, vinyl sheet over the ply for now

Hi Tim, thank you for your previous response. When I do actually decide to start the floor tiling, I was going to get rid of the hardboard.
 
I hope it lasts for at least 5 years! :rolleyes:
A bath/shower room built or refurbished with quality materials of the correct specification should last at least 10 years, possibly 15 & even up to 20 years.
I do not think it is exterior grade....? But does mention "If used externally then all faces and edges should be treated with an appropriate preserver to prolong lifespan".........
Done some checking for you. The specification for ply (BS EN 636) has 3 categories covering the quality of adhesive used to bond the plies;
EN 636-1 for use in dry conditions
EN 636-2 for humid conditions
EN 636-3 for exterior conditions

WBP is EN 636-3, “exterior grade” & uses waterproof adhesive to bond the timber plies together. This is important because the adhesive & grout used in tiling contains water which could weaken the adhesive used to bond the plies. In this case the exterior grading is not to protect against flooding or wet conditions (although it will help); ply is not a suitable tile base in this case unless it’s tanked, say, in a wet room. The Wick’s ply is EN 636-2 for humid conditions, better than standard but not waterproof; it may be OK & you will find out soon enough. I would never risk using anything other than WBP, tile failure is far more expensive.

There is no benefit in you using preserver, you are not trying to protect the timber against rot; in fact you should never prime the tile surface unless your chosen adhesive manufacturer recommends doing so; most don’t as it can affect the tile bond.

The size of the floor is L: 2.65m x W: 1.60m, 45cm joist centres. I used 5x2 C16 timber as noggins and fixed 4 on each row. The ply is screwed down every 20cm along the joists and a couple through each noggins.
So is the joist span 2.65m or 1.6m? What size are the joists? The size of the noggins is fine; I usually screw fix boards every 15cm but 20cm should be fine.

The joint is across the middle, running width wise! I did have acrylic sealer, but did not use that. I gave a couple of coats of timber preserver on the underside and edges.
Joints are a potential weak point & best avoided in the middle of the room. If unavoidable, lay the boards so the joint is along the center line of a joist not across the joist if possible; any cross joist board joints must be properly supported with noggins.

The purpose of the acrylic primer on the underside & edges of the boards is to guard against moisture ingress which could affect stability of the ply causing it to warp & there go your tiles. As above, there is no benefit in using preserver; you are not trying to protect the timber against rot but moisture ingress.

If I was to tile can I not just lay 4/6mm WBP or maybe some type of tile backer?
Don’t use thin ply over board it will only make things worse. Again, the BS spec, adhesive manufacturer & Tile Association recommendations for over boarding is 15mm WBP; however it’s generally recognised that 12mm is sufficient in most cases but this is the minimum you should use. If you need to overboard the 18mm ply you have, a better bet would be to use a quality 6mm tile backer board (Wedi, Marmox, Aquapanel, Hardibacker etc) fixed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

If you tile directly onto the ply, apply a couple of overlapping lengths of reinforcing tape over the join & force tile adhesive well into the mesh before laying the tiles.

What size & type of tiles are you proposing to lay?
 
Peri use the best construction ply's available.
Their 3.3 x 1.2 x 18mm formwork ply is £200.
And is used in the toughest of environments.

You won't find them down b&q though. If I was sheeting my bathroom thats what I'd use.
 
Peri use the best construction ply's available.
Their 3.3 x 1.2 x 18mm formwork ply is £200.
And is used in the toughest of environments.

You won't find them down b&q though. If I was sheeting my bathroom thats what I'd use.
Larger than standard 2.4m sheets but that’s an eye watering amount of cash for an 18mm sheet of ply :eek: . You really don’t need the enhanced structural properties of construction ply for over boarding floors or even floor boarding providing the joists are up to the job. What you need for a tile base is a ply constructed to EN 636-3 spec using waterproof adhesive; WBP is expensive enough as it is but it's really all you need. I’ve been using it for some years as a replacement floor & over board tile base in conjunction with the highest quality tiling products & never had a tile failure to date; I can't afford them! ;)

Sorry if I’m being thick but who/what is Peri? :confused:
 
It says it's EN636-2 spruce ply, but of Nordic manufacture.

If it is actually Nordic, it very likely has a class 3 bond (WBP). They mark it as class 2 plywood because they interpret EN636 standard as requiring the timber to have some durability to achieve class 3 classification, which of course spruce does not achieve.

Check the stamp marks on the plywood, they sometimes mark it as EN636-2 and then separately class 3 bond.

If there are not stamp marks on the ply, well, any decent Nordic manufacturer would stamp it........
 

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