structural wall or not?

[baxtec1]

Hello i am wanting to remove a breeze block wall between our kitchen and dining room, the house was built 1996.

Above the wall upstairs is in the middle of a bedroom which leads me to think its not necessarily a load bearing wall, the beams do however run perpendicular above the wall which i want to remove but they travel above the breeze blocks as 1 solid piece of wood onto the next wall on the other side of the dining room.

On the attached photo the wall i want to remove is between the downstairs window on the right and the slim patio doors.

Not sure if this helps but the beams in the lounge (far left patio doors) run front to back and are certainly a lot longer span than the kitchen diner.

any advice would be great

thanks

 

[champagnecharly]

So can I asume the upstairs floor joists run over are supported/ touching the breezeblock? It may be easiest to measure how long they would travel if the wall were removed. and check in Trada tables to see whether they were of acceptable size for the span.

note, i couldn't see any photos.

 

[baxtec1]

Hello picture now attached??

Yes the joists do touch the top of the breeze blocks and the span will only be 5.25m

 

[champagnecharly]

but what is the size of the joists? 5.25m with wall removed?

 

[baxtec1]

The joist are 1 & 3/4" thick by 7.5" tall and are spaced the standard 16" and yes the total span will be 5.25m wide. Does this sound removable?

 

[champagnecharly]

according to the tables in the link below the max span is between 3.5 and 4.2m depending on your deadload.
http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/d.pdf

So unfortunately the answer is .. yes it is a supporting wall.

you could get around it by installing flitch beams (2 Joists with steel sandwiched between) to engineers specs or by doubling up/ sister joists.

 

[tony1851]

Actually the floor almost certainly wouldn't collapse, but it would bounce a lot - way over-spanned.

 

[baxtec1]

What's the cheapest way to sort this out?

 

[Newboy]

Leave the wall where it is!

 

[champagnecharly]

Leave the wall where it is!

Whats the point of that comment? Waste of your own time i fear.

What's the cheapest way to sort this out?

if you were to put in a steel beam. then around £250-300 inc for SE calcs Then Building control fees. + steel + works
An important factor is how wide the wall is which will indicate the span of the beam required... Or if going down the sister or flitch. (flitch OTT) how many you need. Also ease of instalation and if any services are running through timbers. along with what the floor above is supporting..

 

[champagnecharly]

To get an idea of steel costs, you can use
www.Parkersteel.co.uk

And to find out the steel (as to get an idea) use http://www.eurobeam.co.uk/ demo app.

Entering the standard load data found in the trada link i gave you should give you an idea of what steel is needed and as such the cost.. however there is a lot more to it and its always best to use engineers services. However the steel itself shouldn't cost that much.

 

[tony1851]

And to find out the steel (as to get an idea) use http://www.eurobeam.co.uk/ demo app.

I've done this for years, and to me that site's about as clear as mud

OP could double up the joists and that might just work, but would be a great deal of mess, cost and disruption.

Easiest way is to put a steel beam across where the wall was. One of the 152x152s would be fine, assuming not a great span.

 

[champagnecharly]

And to find out the steel (as to get an idea) use http://www.eurobeam.co.uk/ demo app.

I've done this for years, and to me that site's about as clear as mud

I've not got your experience on the job but as long as you know which figures to enter and you know what types of loads you are applying and where find superbeam or eurobeam fairly straight forward.
The only thing that has thrown me on superbeam is how to calculate cantilevers.. Personally I like the ability to see the calculations and how conclusion is derived in particular the deflection depending on timber structures.

 

[tony1851]

There are loads of these online calculators about, and some are free, but they are of limited use for several reasons, one of which is that a lay person may not be able to calculate the loads properly.

Another issue is overall stability of the building. If you take out the back wall of the house, for example, you can get a beam size adequate for the span and load. But say it weakens the house with respect to lateral stability?

It's not just dealing with figures, it's looking at the overall structure and getting a 'feel' for what is right.

 

[champagnecharly]

I completely agree. hence why I said:
however there is a lot more to it and its always best to use engineers services.
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