Swap Vaillant VRC430F to new Vsmart

[sparkzz]

Hi Guru's,

I currently have a Vaillant EcoTEC Plus 624, a VR61 Wiring Centre & a VRC430F WC control.

I'm looking to upgrade my 430F to the new Vsmart to allow geo fencing through an IFTTT app which apparently it will do.

Will my VR61 suffice or does that need upgrading to a VR66, google seems to be giving me mixed answers & I seem to be going round in circles

Cheers peeps, me!

 

[muggles]

@The831Bunny might be able to help, and there's another Vaillant chap on here too but I've temporarily forgotten his name

 

[sparkzz]

Cheers mucker, I await the voice of the gods

 

[The831Bunny]

In a short answer, I’m not sure lol! It’s a combination that you don’t see often, a VR61 is a rare beast. However in principle it should work. I had my vSMART working with a VR65 for a long while. However, be careful what you wish for. The weather compensation in my opinion is far superior on a 430, the room modulation mode and the flow temperature algorithm is very accurate. The vSMART unit operates very much in on/off mode, with a pseudo weather compensation link to local weather conditions. Don’t get me wrong, it works fine, but its not a smart 430. For that you would need a VRC700 and a 920 internet module.

 

[sparkzz]

Aha, clear as mud then Apart from the geo-fencing & auto-learning, (just to get the bills down a bit) it looks like I'm better off staying as I am, now if only someone could help set the darn thing up & get our sitting room up to temp VRC700/920 looks good but pocket just wont stump to that yet lol, Yorkshireman & all......

Our issue is the front room takes a good hour & a half+ to get up to temperature, its approx a 15ft x 15ft room, but has a single story to double story vaulted ceiling, very oddball. 2 outside walls with ball insulation, 1 wall is all DG window flor to ceiling & 4" insulation in the roof which is external & under the floor. We have UFH, albeit the numpty who supplied it, supplied it with insulation boards which he said would work & were tested, well they don't lol. Don't get me wrong after a good few hours of use it does get up to temp on the floor alone, but it can be running 3 even 4 hrs or more, just to bring it up a couple of degrees from the setback of 18 deg on a HC of around 2.2.

So I added a radiator, vertical wall mounted - 1500x350 double column style. I then added another along an outside wall - a 600x1620 Double column style. It still takes a while to get this room to temp & our boiler appeared to be doing more off stints than on.

Earlier in December I found a thread on here about the modulating, as the 430 had never really been set up by anyone, just me trying different things & it has always been on Thermostatic. Well, it was sort of like my Christmas's had come at once, (see what I did there, December, Christmas lol) Room appeared to heat up quicker & certainly held it better but now with the annoyance of a couple to 3 degrees of overshoot. I even had my HC down at 0.8 & 1.0 & it still crept over. If I could tame that I'd be happy where I am.

I did have it set to setback, but no matter what I changed on that or how low I put the setback the heating was running through the night so for now it's back on Eco & at least when the time period ends the heating turns off fully.

Any words of wisdom oh guru, oh great one lol

 

[The831Bunny]

Firstly UFH is fantastic if set up right, but systems have so many variations.

Have you got a UFH manifold with a manual or electric mixer, what speed is the manifold pump on? Are the rooms balanced with regard to flow rates? Are those rads on the ufh blended temperature? Is your outside sensor on a NNE facing wall not too high up? Are the coil spacing and heat loss calcs correct etc etc...

Usually when commissioning this type of system it can take a while to set up to achieve optimum performance, it’s generally not plug and play as you’ve found.

There may certainly be some adjustments to make it better, but UFH by design is not meant to be on/off operation, in fact better efficiency is achieved by running it virtually constant with flow temperature adjustments by the controls.

Come back with some answers and I am busy this weekend, but may be able to improve things. Nothing beats standing in front of the problem with your toolbox and getting paid though

 

[sparkzz]

UFH manifold has a manual mixer, Pump on 2, tried 3 but no real difference

Are the rooms balanced with regard to flow rates - yes as best as I can with a non contact thermometer - rest of the house is fine, works with TRV's & is always comfortable, just this darn sitting room

Rads in sitting room with UFH are t'd off the feed pipes to the manifold which run direct from the boiler rather than using part of the existing heating circuit, before & after though so not through the mixer

Temp sensor is approx 2mtr up & yes on a NNE facing wall

Are the coil spacing and heat loss calcs correct - used spreader plates & did it to the best we could according to online calcs

It’s generally not plug and play as you’ve found - yep this lol

UFH by design is not meant to be on/off operation - TBH, we did for a while, but it just took so long even to bring it back up 1 deg, although tbh we were on thermostatic, not modulation.

Nothing beats standing in front of the problem with your toolbox (& a brew!!) and getting paid though - If you are local to York, kettle will be on, feel free to pop in lol. Being self employed myself I know this statement

No drama, any help on your time will be fine, been like this a few years so a few days wont hurt the pocket anymore lol. Have a grand weekend

 

[The831Bunny]

Aha! As the youngsters say. Well, sounds in order physically. Have you got the boiler installation manual to reference how to get into the diagnostic codes? It’s just much quicker if I list the ones to change rather than the whole procedure.

Other than that the ‘design’ temperature setting of the manual mixer may be conflicting with the adjustments made by the 430. You could increase the manual mixer temp to use as a high limit stat (day 50C) and adjust your curve to a more realistic 0.8. If you are all UFH you are better to make adjustments on the boiler and 430, those couple of rads do throw that idea out a bit though.

Firstly I’d pop the manifold pump up to 3 and open fully the sitting room circuit up full to increase the flow rate. The other circuits for the time being could be reduced slightly, but you did say they were balanced. Also have you got your system design load in KW’s or failing that your house size and type so I can give you the boiler settings.

I’m in Norwich, Norfolk Broads territory, so a few miles from God’s Country. Everyone has a price though lol! If you were wondering I work exclusively on Vaillant products and have done directly with Vaillant and my own company since 1987...

 

[sparkzz]

It’s just much quicker if I list the ones to change - yep, fine to do that

high limit stat (day 50C) and adjust your curve to a more realistic 0.8. - OK, will try that, sitting room UFH runs at full flow, think I'm knocking on the door of 4l/m, tried it at various flow rates. not the easiest part to balance

UFH is only in sitting room & open plan stairs area coming off the same mixer, which actually being a much bigger area is working fine. Rest of the house is on rads

manifold pump up to 3 and open fully the sitting room circuit up full to increase the flow rate. - Just done that

Also have you got your system design load in KW’s or failing that your house size and type so I can give you the boiler settings. - no, the house has been extended over time & various rooms added. i do have the most recent plans from the last extension if you want I can email those across if that would work. Doesn't show radiators though?? Shows exact room sizes though

Once the house is up to temp, it does hold it quite well, it just takes an age to get there. the one other thing, from cold it runs approx 40 to 50 mins, then we get the radiator symbol flashing on the boiler saying it is in anti-cycle mode. when in modulating the pump continues to run, but in thermostatic it shuts down as soon as it starts flashing

I’m in Norwich, Norfolk Broads territory, so a few miles from God’s Country. - nice place to be I'd gladly pay a day rate to get this all setup, (albeit a Yorkshire day rate hehe) doing my napper in now

 

[The831Bunny]

OK, assumed the rest of the house was UFH. That’s the problem I’m afraid!

You have two flow temperature requirements and two different heat up rates with rads and UFH. The good news is the VR61 is capable of running two circuits. So the only way to accurately run both circuits is to use a separate thermostat (a VR81) in the ufh zone and move the 430 (or visa versa) to the rad zone.

This will then independently control both areas temperature, timing, and heat curve wise, supplying two different flow temperatures. To do this then you ideally need a motorised blender on the UFH manifold rather than a manual one. This connects to the VR61. It looks like you were nearly there but no cigar. Who species and designed the system?

So with an additional VR81 connected to the ebus the second zone is enabled and displayed on the 430. The curve set on the 430 for each zone is then specific to the heat emitters. Typically 0.5-1.2 for UFH, 2.0-2.6 for radiators. Currently you’re juggling just one curve setting to fit both situations.

The only way to do it without spending money is to fudge some settings to approximately suit rads and ufh. You may not be too far away from that anyway. Where is the 430 located?

 

[sparkzz]

That’s the problem I’m afraid! - Booger

a VR81 in the ufh zone and move the 430 (or visa versa) to the rad zone. 430 can be wherever as wireless lol, but no way to get a wired stat to sitting room so would need the 430 in there

motorised blender on the UFH manifold rather than a manual one. - problem with this again, is getting a wire down to it

Who species and designed the system? - obviously someone who wasn't quite smoking a cigar that day lol

So with an additional VR81 - I'm 99% certain we have one of these, the guy just never fitted it, I need to have a look in the spare room but will be tomorrow!!

Where is the 430 located? - it's an F so wireless, at the mo we keep that in the lounge & just throttle back the rest of the house on trv's

You sure you don't want a ride over one day, beer fridge is fully stocked, nice comfy spare king size bed & our lass is a mean cook hehe

 

[The831Bunny]

Well on the face of it it appears the right kit was bought for starters (the VR61, two zone, is quite an expense over a single zone controller), but was never implemented properly. That’s a real shame. You can run it with a manual mixer, but you probably need to rewire the VR61 to zone valves for each circuit (HW, UFH & rads) and fit two sensors (VR10) just after the valves. This should have all be done at the start. If you’ve got the VR61 installation book, your layout is in there.

 

[The831Bunny]

It shows a low loss header and zone pumps rather than zone valves, that’s the German way, but on a medium sized property should work ok using just the boiler pump. Do you know your Heating load requirements, house size or even how many rads you have. I’ll list those changes at the boiler to at least help something.

 

[sparkzz]

Do you know your Heating load requirements, house size or even how many rads you have. I’ll list those changes at the boiler to at least help something.[/QUOTE]

Top of my head, we have 16 radiators, 1 which runs direct from the boiler in an ensuite. Sitting room has UFH/2 radiators & Study/downstairs office which is open plan to the stairs is UFH. Do you have an email address I can fire the house plans across if that would help as tbh, I haven't a barny as to what this ole house requires, it's not your normal 4 walls & a roof

thanks for all the help so far mister, really appreciate your input