Tell me about fire doors

[Sunshine12]

Domestic family home, having loft conversion. In process of upgrading all bedroom doors to fire doors. I have 45mm fire doors, fire rated 4 inch hinges & hinge pads.

Have sent the BCO several emails & phone calls but still not heard back. looked through approved doc B but cannot find guidance on the following:

1. Is it okay to use standard pre-existing door frames that have a 12mm rebate stop, or is it mandatory to change the frames to fire rated?

2. Intumescent strips - fit to the door or within the frame? I will have to rout out as neither door nor frame is pre grooved.

3. Smoke seals - are these mandatory? If so, are the brush or plastic fin style preferable? I can only find black brush which doesn’t look great against new white paintwork, are there any suppliers that sell with a white fin or white brush?

I have Smoke alarms on landing, not in every room. It’s a traditional 3 bed semi with hallway & stairs from the front door whichever would be the escape route.

Could some please give me a nudge in the right direction?


https://assets.publishing.service.g...chment_data/file/485420/BR_PDF_AD_B1_2013.pdf

 

[tony1851]

You don't need intumescent strips or smoke seals on the doors
Just hard-wired interlinked alarms on the escape route.

 

[JohnD]

the rules keep changing, but last time I checked, you can have those shallow rebates if you have intumescent strips, or 25mm stops without. That was when replacing existing.

My wired smoke detectors predate current rules so I think they don't comply.

I like the brush seals as they also block noise and draughts. I have some grey ones. I think white would show the dirt.

 

[Ian H]

You don't need intumescent strips or smoke seals on the doors
Just hard-wired interlinked alarms on the escape route.

So linked main powered smoke alarms top of loft stairs, first floor landing, ground floor hall way then heat alarm in kitchen and a carbon monoxide/smoke in utility room and you don't need the seals?

 

[bobsuerita]

when i done mine last year had to have intu strips and linked smoke alarms no smoke seals needed

 

[JohnD]

is this one still valid?

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....ortal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_B2_2013.pdf

edit

sorry, that one's not for "dwellinghouses." I think it includes blocks of flats.

 

[Sunshine12]

Why is there no definitive guidance? For something that is so common & also could be life saving? Why can’t it just be detailed properly in a document B. It goes into enough detail on everything else.

It takes days, sometimes a week to get a response from a BCO. Fair enough, they’re busy & im not the only person with a question, but when you have trades on site & they’re all saying check with building control but you can’t get a response! And the BC fee isn’t cheap!

Anyway, I already know smoke alarms on the landing & hallway alone are NOT sufficient.

There must be a smoke alarm in EVERY ROOM (mains linked & battery back up) to avoid the need for fire doors. Or a sprinkler system would negate the requirement too. That’s it.

Otherwise, there must be fire doors on habitable rooms. They must have 3 fire rated hinges.

After that, I have no clue about the strips, stops & smoke seals.

Apparently it may be possible to upgrade old solid doors to be fire resistant. Again the document doesn’t specify how. Great help.

 

[tony1851]

So linked main powered smoke alarms top of loft stairs, first floor landing, ground floor hall way then heat alarm in kitchen and a carbon monoxide/smoke in utility room and you don't need the seals?

Part B is, as they say, 'open to interpretation' but it's really down to risk.
In ordinary dwellings, I think that it's accepted that with smoke detectors on the escape route only, putting seals on doors would negate the purpose of the alarms. For example a fire in the lounge could develop considerably behind a sealed door without activating the alarm.
The alternative could be to put alarms in each room as well as the escape route, and do away with fire doors altogether.
This is an area of the building regs which keeps changing and doubtless there will be more soon.
In Wales, it is now mandatory to have sprinklers if a two storey house has a loft conversion. Doubtless, this will soon be a requirement in England.

 

[Sunshine12]

Tony, I hear what you’re saying about the smoke not setting the alarm off.

But isn’t that the whole idea, that the fire and smoke is contained within the room as long as possible, so that occupants can escape?

If the landing is full of smoke from a burning bedroom for example, that could make it more difficult to escape I guess?

I still don’t grasp why a 25mm stopper negates the need for intumescent strips either. I thought their purpose was to expand in the event of a fire.

If I had known in hindsight I would have put smoke alarms in every room, but I’m way past that now as everywhere is plastered & painted. If I did now they would only be battery, not mains linked

Interesting about Wales, I guess the problem is a fire door is only effective if it’s actually closed. Who sleeps with every door in the house closed?

 

[cdbe]

When I did mine some years ago I put interlinked smokes in every room and landings (10 in total but I had access so it was easy to do) and intumescent strips (in the doors) but retained standard frames, I also fitted chain closers. Closers obviously now out of favour as everyone just disconnected them.

Don't quote me but I think you can now get radio interlinked mains smoke alarms and power them from light fittings.

 

[JohnD]

I guess the problem is a fire door is only effective if it’s actually closed. Who sleeps with every door in the house closed?

People who don't die in fires?

 

[Ian H]

I don't even have any doors yet!!

 

[^woody^]

Why is there no definitive guidance? For something that is so common & also could be life saving? Why can’t it just be detailed properly in a document B. It goes into enough detail on everything else.

Fire safety has moved to a risk-based design strategy to allow for the way people live and use /don't use safety systems and devices. So apart from the various BE/EN standards there is allowance for adapting requirements for individual situations rather than having a rigid system of one size fits all.

The Approved Documents are not the Building Regulations, just a possible way of meeting the Regulations - so there wont be anything definitive - and there should not be as its a specialist area and should not really be for just anyone to pick up Part B and DIY their fire safety.

For loft conversions it is quite simple. A protected escape route and a Grade D LD3 alarm system, or LD2 if there are other high risk areas such as open plan ground floor. Substantial non-fire doors and linings will suffice instead of a specific FD20 door and lining. Hardboard is not substantial but 38mm solid timber would be. A standard door lining will also be OK if its one piece, but plant-on stops may need gluing and screwing.

 

[Sunshine12]

Well another day and still no response from BCO.

I see Woody. So it’s actually down to the individual BCO whether he thinks it meet the regulations? So what are the actual regulations?

Like I say, I have mains interlinked smoke alarms on the landing, hall & kitchen (plus heat detector). I can’t retrofit them in every room now.

I have brand new 45mm fire doors with 4 inch fire rated hinges & pads. I would like to hang them on all the bedrooms and kitchen ASAP.

But I need to know if i can use the existing frames that have a 12mm rebate, and need to know if smoke seals are a requirement.

At the moment, I have no fire doors on which is a hell of a lot more dangerous!

 

[Sunshine12]

People who don't die in fires?

Yeah right. You’ve clearly never lived in a house with kids who are up and down all night.

Smoke alarms in every room should be mandatory IMO.