I've got a pendant lampholder fixed to the choc-block hanging from mine.
Old light broke, posh new light already purchased, room being rearranged, new light to go in different position, not ready to put new light up yet.....
Temporary Electrical Repairs
- Thread starter RMS
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Old light broke, posh new light already purchased, room being rearranged, new light to go in different position, not ready to put new light up yet.....
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Jumping to conclusions as when I have seen this done the connector blocks have always been taped up. If these have not been then that makes it even worse. Who would think that leaving exposed live parts is acceptable as a temp repair. Crazy!
As a temporary repair?
Are you insinuating this would be acceptable as a permanent repair???
Obviously not starspark1 as I am clearly against it as being used for a limited time, why would you think that I would agree to leave it as permanent repair? I don't understand your logic on this one. Or are you just being a bit pedantic again? I'll advise you to listen to moderator8 as (s)he seems to know your game!
Ah yes,I forgot to mention - I've got one of 'em, too
Exactly same here - although, as I admitted, this has been ongoing for a number of months!
Kind Regards, John.
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I would agree with JohnW2.
There is really no such thing as temporary. Well unless you consider SECTION 704 - CONSTRUCTION AND DEMOLITION SITE INSTALLATIONS as temporary in which case reduced low voltage would be required. However we are required to either find alternative accommodation or leave the premises in a liveable condition.
This means although the rules may say switch off on one hand they will not allow you to switch off on the other.
So second scenario first. I could see after a long day getting tired which is never a good way to work how until the next day one would move it to a non RCD protected circuit then return fresh the next day.
I have also had it where in spite of informing my boss I do need to return I have been diverted on the next day. Not right but one has to be real with this. So one has to ask what is the alternative? Hotel overnight is how it should work but often the tenant does not want to do that even if offered.
Clearly it should not happen but sometimes there is very little option.
So if roles were reversed and I am the tenant and the electrician has not returned what option. Assuming it was originally mutual and for what ever reason the electrician has not returned. I would tell some white lies and say I was expecting a child, dog, elderly mother what ever in two weeks time to stay for couple of days and it will need fixing before they arrive or the family will need hotel accommodation.
As to wires out of ceiling in chock block. Well this is harder as 1 mm or 12.5 mm depending on if from top or side and bottom is the IP rating for enclosures. I know a chock block would not be considered as an enclosure but being technical if it requires a tool to access the cables then it would be hard to prove it should not be done. It would be up to the courts to decide. Now for the court to rule would really only happen after the event i.e. some one is injured so the fact that they have been injured really does prove the point. Clearly it should not be left like that but would be hard to force the issue. Remember BS7671 is not law but can be used in a court of law.
In my younger days I have been caught out. Today rare. If I was to arrive at a house and I did not think I could complete the repairs in the day I would say so before I started. Of course we make mistakes we are only human.
You can see the problem for electrician. He should not have left it like that how does he admit to his boss he has left it in that state?
Lets face it our government is only temporary until next election. It seems under 16 weeks is temporary with most jobs but I have worked on contracts much longer than that.
There is really no such thing as temporary. Well unless you consider SECTION 704 - CONSTRUCTION AND DEMOLITION SITE INSTALLATIONS as temporary in which case reduced low voltage would be required. However we are required to either find alternative accommodation or leave the premises in a liveable condition.
This means although the rules may say switch off on one hand they will not allow you to switch off on the other.
So second scenario first. I could see after a long day getting tired which is never a good way to work how until the next day one would move it to a non RCD protected circuit then return fresh the next day.
I have also had it where in spite of informing my boss I do need to return I have been diverted on the next day. Not right but one has to be real with this. So one has to ask what is the alternative? Hotel overnight is how it should work but often the tenant does not want to do that even if offered.
Clearly it should not happen but sometimes there is very little option.
So if roles were reversed and I am the tenant and the electrician has not returned what option. Assuming it was originally mutual and for what ever reason the electrician has not returned. I would tell some white lies and say I was expecting a child, dog, elderly mother what ever in two weeks time to stay for couple of days and it will need fixing before they arrive or the family will need hotel accommodation.
As to wires out of ceiling in chock block. Well this is harder as 1 mm or 12.5 mm depending on if from top or side and bottom is the IP rating for enclosures. I know a chock block would not be considered as an enclosure but being technical if it requires a tool to access the cables then it would be hard to prove it should not be done. It would be up to the courts to decide. Now for the court to rule would really only happen after the event i.e. some one is injured so the fact that they have been injured really does prove the point. Clearly it should not be left like that but would be hard to force the issue. Remember BS7671 is not law but can be used in a court of law.
In my younger days I have been caught out. Today rare. If I was to arrive at a house and I did not think I could complete the repairs in the day I would say so before I started. Of course we make mistakes we are only human.
You can see the problem for electrician. He should not have left it like that how does he admit to his boss he has left it in that state?
Lets face it our government is only temporary until next election. It seems under 16 weeks is temporary with most jobs but I have worked on contracts much longer than that.
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Just moving the mcb to the non rcd protected side should not be an option in this scenario. There would surely be other options if unable to rectify the fault on the first visit depending on the fault.
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I would agree should not be an option but in real life it does happen. I watched an electrician struggling after changing a consumer unit without first doing a full test and inspection.
5:30pm so all retail outlets are closed. Has not got the test gear he should have and RCD will not hold. People living in the house clearly he can't leave the power off overnight and return to complete in the morning. I also did not have test gear with me but was able to borrow a RCD to try a different one. However it clearly was not a faulty RCD. He fitted an Isolator promising to return. He was never seen again. Seems he fell out with builder over non payment of bill.
In the end I took my meters about 2 weeks later and traced problem to a lenght of faulty cable with a DIY spur which had over heated with old rubber twin and earth imperial stuff.
Being real the guy had little or no chance of finding the fault with just a multi-meter. What he did was wrong. But I can see why.
I did myself walk off a job with faults. It was a shop and a set of sockets had faults not installed by me but I was last electrician on site. They wanted me back in morning but I had plane ticket to go to new job that evening. No way was I not taking new job because some other electrician had made an error.
That's life. In the real world this happens. My contract had ended and the job was not finished.
Now we have no idea what has happened here. Clearly he should have said sorry can't turn power back on you will have to do without power like the gas men do.
But we are I hope more reasonable than the gas men and we try and help. So we break the rules. So why was it never put right. We don't know.
5:30pm so all retail outlets are closed. Has not got the test gear he should have and RCD will not hold. People living in the house clearly he can't leave the power off overnight and return to complete in the morning. I also did not have test gear with me but was able to borrow a RCD to try a different one. However it clearly was not a faulty RCD. He fitted an Isolator promising to return. He was never seen again. Seems he fell out with builder over non payment of bill.
In the end I took my meters about 2 weeks later and traced problem to a lenght of faulty cable with a DIY spur which had over heated with old rubber twin and earth imperial stuff.
Being real the guy had little or no chance of finding the fault with just a multi-meter. What he did was wrong. But I can see why.
I did myself walk off a job with faults. It was a shop and a set of sockets had faults not installed by me but I was last electrician on site. They wanted me back in morning but I had plane ticket to go to new job that evening. No way was I not taking new job because some other electrician had made an error.
That's life. In the real world this happens. My contract had ended and the job was not finished.
Now we have no idea what has happened here. Clearly he should have said sorry can't turn power back on you will have to do without power like the gas men do.
But we are I hope more reasonable than the gas men and we try and help. So we break the rules. So why was it never put right. We don't know.
In the original post it is not clear if moving the sockets to the non rcd side is temorary or not.
I would consider blanking the the ceiling cable off with connector blocks but WITH tape a reasonable temporary repair.
But how long is temporary? Until people forget about it I suppose, when it becomes permanent.
Obviously a junction box would be better, but these are prone to problems if they are without cable clamps and have holes in them which things could be inserted to - so maybe a connector block WITH tape is safer after all.
There's a common way to tape a cable up without using connector blocks - by taping each core end separately to the cable itself, then folding the uncut sheath end over it and taping over that. Dreadful practice but there you go.
Worst of all is just an inch long piece of tape just placed over the cut end of a cable, yet there are people out there happy to do that.
I would consider blanking the the ceiling cable off with connector blocks but WITH tape a reasonable temporary repair.
But how long is temporary? Until people forget about it I suppose, when it becomes permanent.
Obviously a junction box would be better, but these are prone to problems if they are without cable clamps and have holes in them which things could be inserted to - so maybe a connector block WITH tape is safer after all.
There's a common way to tape a cable up without using connector blocks - by taping each core end separately to the cable itself, then folding the uncut sheath end over it and taping over that. Dreadful practice but there you go.
Worst of all is just an inch long piece of tape just placed over the cut end of a cable, yet there are people out there happy to do that.
Jumping to conclusions as when I have seen this done the connector blocks have always been taped up. If these have not been then that makes it even worse. Who would think that leaving exposed live parts is acceptable as a temp repair. Crazy!
As a temporary repair?
Are you insinuating this would be acceptable as a permanent repair???
Obviously not starspark1 as I am clearly against it as being used for a limited time, why would you think that I would agree to leave it as permanent repair? I don't understand your logic on this one. Or are you just being a bit pedantic again? I'll advise you to listen to moderator8 as (s)he seems to know your game!
I wasnt being pedantic i was asking a simple question to clarify what you said. It was on topic and relevant so what is the problem?
Is this a free and open Forum?
Is this a democracy?
Apparently its seems this is a mod 8 and vibro dictatorship.
Absolutely ridiculous and unjustified mod 8 perhaps you can explain your reasoning??
Meanwhile back in the real world i agree that the temporary choc block light is sufficient in your own house etc but not acceptable in a tenanted house where these tenants are paying for a decent and safe installation. Whats to say in this compensation crazy day and age some people wouldn't claim they had received a belt for a compensation claim etc?? Some people just cant be trusted and some are just plain idiotic im afraid. If that was to happen it would be the person/company making the temporary connection to prove that they had done everything required to leave that connection suitably and sufficiently safe.
As for the socket circuit moved to the non rcd side due to a fault well thats just a no brainer and totally unacceptable in my eyes.
I now use wago connectors and a Wagobox for all temporary connections like this. They take seconds to put on, the cables are strain-relieved and not a bit of tape is needed. Can be used on cables upto 6mm.
This way if I leave a site - no one can say they got a shock for anything I left, unless they dismantled it - then there'er on thier own.
As for the N-E short, no one with an ounce of experience would/should be fitting an RCD with out testing the circuit first, so this problem should not be occuring late in the day. Insulation resistance testing on exsisting circuits should be the very first thing to look at - it determines what kind of a day you are going to have if you are proposing to upgrade a circuit/s to RCD. Hunt down the fault first. There have been days where I had wished I never took the front off of the fuseboard and made it my responsibility to find a N-E fault which then can take the rest of the day. But there would be no way I'd remove the old board until the dead tests were satisfactory.
This way if I leave a site - no one can say they got a shock for anything I left, unless they dismantled it - then there'er on thier own.
As for the N-E short, no one with an ounce of experience would/should be fitting an RCD with out testing the circuit first, so this problem should not be occuring late in the day. Insulation resistance testing on exsisting circuits should be the very first thing to look at - it determines what kind of a day you are going to have if you are proposing to upgrade a circuit/s to RCD. Hunt down the fault first. There have been days where I had wished I never took the front off of the fuseboard and made it my responsibility to find a N-E fault which then can take the rest of the day. But there would be no way I'd remove the old board until the dead tests were satisfactory.
Although we don't know, nothing the OP said indicated that this N-E fault was present when the RCD was installed. If it wasn't then that makes things even worse - i.e. if a N-E fault arose long after the RCD had been installed and, rather than investigate and rectify the cause of the fault, the person who was meant to be sorting out the problem 'temporarily' moved the circuit off the RCD. That really could be a ticking time-bomb!
Kind Regards, John.
I agree, I was making a general point of people not doing the testing in the right order rather than responding to the OP
Yes
It was a bathroom light fitting that had overheated due to use of an incorrect lamp. That light was removed and the cable was fitted with connector blocks. The work took place out of normal working hours. Someone was expected to come back and rectify within 10 days.
The N-E fault was on a different property. The RCD was existing. Again this was an emergency call out that was carried out outside of normal working hours. An electrician returned the next day.
It was revealed after further investigation that the tenant had nailed through a cable when hanging a picture. The nail had been there for a couple of years.
I have issues with both scenarios and feel they are both unacceptable. I understand that we all 'as electricians' are slightly more relaxed about health and safety when it comes to our own homes but I feel this is not the way to go at work.
Interested to hear people's thoughts on this with regards to the 'Electricity At Work Regulations'?
So the householder had no light in the bathroom? thats not really acceptable either, why did the electrician not fit a pendant set or batten lamp holder as temporary measure
Not ideal, but on a callout if they needed that circuit for freezers etc, then limited options. If the householder is told not to use that circuit for leads outside (or either high risk applications) without a plug in RCD adapater until the fault is sorted. and the electrician returns promptly, then I cant see a major issue. Obviously as a long term fix its unacceptable, but as a short term measure then sometimes needs must, etc.
I'd have thought a better solution would be to find the location of the fault, then either break the ring eliminating the "nailed through cable" and down rate the breaker as a temporary fix. This would enable the circuit to be energized, but explain to the customer that they could not run as many appliances until the ring could be reinstated. Or turn the ring into 2 radials and eliminate the faulty cable. Both of these scenarios would leave the tenant with power to the sockets protected via a RCD. Just eliminating the RCD and leaving a dangerous fault is just not good enough in this situation.
Perhaps in an ideal world, hower not many electricians would get into splitting down a ring at 10pm in an occupied domestic with furniture in front of sockets, etc after a hard day at work, when the resident also wants him to finish up quickly and set them settle down for the night. I don't see lack of RCD protection to one circuit for one night being a risk that cannot me managed. The direct instruction not to use those sockets for outside with an RCD adapter should suffice. The fault can then be attended to in working ours with a clear head and a more reasonable rate for the customer.
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