The answer to the NHS is not more money.

[JohnD]

I know a retired person with only the state pension, and a few pounds a week from an occupational scheme, so get Pension Credit to top up to a living amount, also gets a benefit towards rent, and qualifies for some kind of rebate on energy costs; free boiler etc.

The basic pension itself would be very meagre, and this is recognised, hence the additional help for those with nothing else.

most of those I know live off their OAP alone.

If you are sure that is true (and of course they are entitled to privacy) direct them to https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit
"Guarantee Credit tops up your weekly income if it’s below £155.60 (for single people) or £237.55 (for couples).

Savings Credit is an extra payment for people who saved some money towards their retirement, eg a pension"

 

[Himaginn]

I think elderly treatment on the NHS should be means tested. As the wealth is pooled in that age group surely it's only fair they pay for their treatment if they can afford to. Sounds harsh but the system cannot sustain itself without some something radical like that.

Not sure if I like that - they've also paid into the system (nat insurance) all their lives. I'd rather they increased nat insurance a bit... and sorted out money wasting in the NHS.

If an elderly couple have saved over a million pounds, mortgage paid, children have long since left home.. and one needs a cataract sorted out costing the NHS quite a few thousands, what would be so demonstrably unfair about that person paying for his treatment? Given that he can EASILY afford to pay a few grand for it ??

Yes it is unfair considering that is not how the system ever intended it, but unfortunately there is no getting around the fact the NHS cannot afford to treat everyone, and the youth cannot be targetted anymore.. as they have already been targetted in every which way. Look at the ridiculous cost of renting a home (not a concern of the older generation). Look at the cost of buying a home (not a concern of the older generation). Look at the ****ty pension deals on offer and anti-social hours demanded by employers, OFTEN UNPAID. The older crowd have no clue what it's like by comparison. Sorry but it's time to get real.

If pensioners are to be means tested to qualify for NHS treatment, then why not everyone?

 

[JohnD]

That's a question for anti-NHS Conservatives such as Gove. (check his book)

"Gove is one of several Conservative MPs who co-authored Direct Democracy: An Agenda for a New Model Party (2005).[118][119] The book says the NHS "fails to meet public expectations" and calls for it to be dismantled and replaced with personal health accounts.[118]
Wikipedia

But don't worry, he's not the only one. What does it matter when you and your buddies are all multimillionaires?

£350million promised last week, £100million this week.

NHS

• JohnD
• 3 Jul 2016

 

[HawkEye244]

I think elderly treatment on the NHS should be means tested. As the wealth is pooled in that age group surely it's only fair they pay for their treatment if they can afford to. Sounds harsh but the system cannot sustain itself without some something radical like that.

Not sure if I like that - they've also paid into the system (nat insurance) all their lives. I'd rather they increased nat insurance a bit... and sorted out money wasting in the NHS.

If an elderly couple have saved over a million pounds, mortgage paid, children have long since left home.. and one needs a cataract sorted out costing the NHS quite a few thousands, what would be so demonstrably unfair about that person paying for his treatment? Given that he can EASILY afford to pay a few grand for it ??

Yes it is unfair considering that is not how the system ever intended it, but unfortunately there is no getting around the fact the NHS cannot afford to treat everyone, and the youth cannot be targetted anymore.. as they have already been targetted in every which way. Look at the ridiculous cost of renting a home (not a concern of the older generation). Look at the cost of buying a home (not a concern of the older generation). Look at the ****ty pension deals on offer and anti-social hours demanded by employers, OFTEN UNPAID. The older crowd have no clue what it's like by comparison. Sorry but it's time to get real.

If pensioners are to be means tested to qualify for NHS treatment, then why not everyone?

Old people are the primary users of the NHS by a long long way

 

[HawkEye244]

I think elderly treatment on the NHS should be means tested. As the wealth is pooled in that age group surely it's only fair they pay for their treatment if they can afford to. Sounds harsh but the system cannot sustain itself without some something radical like that.

Not sure if I like that - they've also paid into the system (nat insurance) all their lives. I'd rather they increased nat insurance a bit... and sorted out money wasting in the NHS.

If an elderly couple have saved over a million pounds, mortgage paid, children have long since left home.. and one needs a cataract sorted out costing the NHS quite a few thousands, what would be so demonstrably unfair about that person paying for his treatment? Given that he can EASILY afford to pay a few grand for it ??

Yes it is unfair considering that is not how the system ever intended it, but unfortunately there is no getting around the fact the NHS cannot afford to treat everyone, and the youth cannot be targetted anymore.. as they have already been targetted in every which way. Look at the ridiculous cost of renting a home (not a concern of the older generation). Look at the cost of buying a home (not a concern of the older generation). Look at the ****ty pension deals on offer and anti-social hours demanded by employers, OFTEN UNPAID. The older crowd have no clue what it's like by comparison. Sorry but it's time to get real.

I should imagine that elderly couples who have saved over a million are not that common and I know that if I'd saved that amount in my old age (as if) then I'd go private and save myself a long waiting list.

What about all the other old folk who haven't saved that amount, ie, most of them? Whereas I agree, it is much much harder for younger folk now, I don't see why we should penalise old folk either. People already are forced to pay towards their care in old age, having to sell homes etc and you also want them to pay for any operations or medical help too?! Madness.
I also find that the difference in attitude with older folk I know is interesting - they are unlikely to squander money, buy flashy cars and TV's that they can't afford, they don't seem to spend beyond their means, they have an attitude to save. So you want them to be forced into paying for their health care (AGAIN) instead of enjoy a retirement just because they worked hard and were sensible?

I said old people that can afford to pay...

 

[blightymam]

I said old people that can afford to pay...

Ok, then that's not much help then is it? A small percentage of the population isn't going to really help the state of the NHS.

 

[HawkEye244]

Some old people have a lot, some have very little. It makes no sense to blame or pity people solely due to their age.

The Care Cap is, really, intended to help the sons and daughters of prosperous elderly people, so they receive a fat inheritance they have not earned or worked for. So is the huge rise in Inheritance Tax allowances.

If you happened to be a young couple starting out in life 70 years ago, and bought a modest house in, say, Walthamstow, you might well be sitting on a million or two by now, just by floating up on the rising tide of prosperity caused by British society.

In other parts of Britain, you might be lumbered with a house that won't even fetch a pound, just by sinking down in the economic downturn resulting from, say, the collapse of industry and regional poverty. Or you might be a tenant, owning no home at all.

In neither case have you earned your good or bad fortune.

It's a funny thing that the Conservative government has devised a scheme that benefits the lucky rich, but not the unlucky poor.

Coincidence?

Nobody is blaiming old people for being old.

Do you blame younger people for getting excited about recieving an inheritance? You realise home ownership is an impossibility for most working class men and women of age ? You think the younger generation want to be living with parents to avoid ridiculous rental prices and living costs ? What inheritance tax rises ? So far it's remained at 325k and to my knowledge there's no ABSOLUTE confirmation this will change, especially if Labour get in. Inheritance has always been a sting of the middle classes who it benefits most. The upper and super rich often avoid the tax because they can afford long-term tax planning. Boring Tory bashing again.

Back on point.. the NHS is not sustainable, unless you want the older crowd to contribute towards their pay if they can afford it, or a massive wealth distribution scheme whereby the top 1% pay HUGE reperations back into the public purse.

 

[HawkEye244]

I said old people that can afford to pay...

Ok, then that's not much help then is it? A small percentage of the population isn't going to really help the state of the NHS.

Of course it will because it takes them out of the NHS into the private sector !!!!

I would think the MAJORITY of elderly currently clogging up the health system could EASILY afford to pay for their NHS treatment.. by far NOT a small percentage of the elderly using the NHS, the MAJORITY.

 

[blightymam]

I said old people that can afford to pay...

Ok, then that's not much help then is it? A small percentage of the population isn't going to really help the state of the NHS.

Of course it will because it takes them out of the NHS into the private sector !!!!

But you're not thinking it through! You said that old people who had savings of a million should pay, well those won't be as common as to make a difference to the NHS. If you had said it was means tested with everyone, no matter what age, lower the level of wealth then it may help a little bit but then that will cease to be the NHS because you're privatising it.

However, things like cancer cost a lot to treat per patient, what happens when the savings run out? They may go back on the NHS with a bit of a wait, fingers crossed that they don't muck it up because communication within the NHS is pants (I know this personally), then if they are lucky enough to survive they are then pushed into poverty by no fault of their own - simply because they were unfortunate to get really sick. Is this fair? Your system would mean that anyone who gets sick will then be skint for the rest of their retirement.

Stopping waste on the NHS by the people who run the NHS will help, seriously, this waste runs into the billions, just think of the new computer system they tried and failed to out in place for example. Stopping cuts by the government will help. Perhaps, just perhaps combining all these little things will mean the NHS will have more money to do their job. Simply fixating on a few wealthy old people, who to be fair have already paid a LOT into the NHS doesn't really help the situation.

 

[JohnD]

Stopping waste on the NHS by the people who run the NHS

That's the government.

 

[blightymam]

Stopping waste on the NHS by the people who run the NHS

That's the government.

Not always. As I said in an earlier post, just have a quick google and you'll see lots of waste within the NHS. Worked on a few stories myself in my press days, like £20k being spent on manager jollies and that's small change.

 

[HawkEye244]

I said old people that can afford to pay...

Ok, then that's not much help then is it? A small percentage of the population isn't going to really help the state of the NHS.

Of course it will because it takes them out of the NHS into the private sector !!!!

But you're not thinking it through! You said that old people who had savings of a million should pay, well those won't be as common as to make a difference to the NHS. If you had said it was means tested with everyone, no matter what age, lower the level of wealth then it may help a little bit but then that will cease to be the NHS because you're privatising it.

However, things like cancer cost a lot to treat per patient, what happens when the savings run out? They may go back on the NHS with a bit of a wait, fingers crossed that they don't muck it up because communication within the NHS is pants (I know this personally), then if they are lucky enough to survive they are then pushed into poverty by no fault of their own - simply because they were unfortunate to get really sick. Is this fair? Your system would mean that anyone who gets sick will then be skint for the rest of their retirement.

Stopping waste on the NHS by the people who run the NHS will help, seriously, this waste runs into the billions, just think of the new computer system they tried and failed to out in place for example. Stopping cuts by the government will help. Perhaps, just perhaps combining all these little things will mean the NHS will have more money to do their job. Simply fixating on a few wealthy old people, who to be fair have already paid a LOT into the NHS doesn't really help the situation.

Don't deny the fact it would help. Neither of us have supporting figures, but my instinct says it would have much more of an impact than you are implying it would. It would never happen anyway of course because OAPs vote for policies that help them (winter allowance/freedom passes). OAPS would not let in anyone saying they will take OAPs money for their treatment. At the moment the old are dying because the NHS do not have the resources to treat them, younger working age people take preference because they are simply more important than old people who no longer work. This is how the government see it, but you are having a go at me for suggesting a way in which the load of the NHS could be reduced potentially saving the lives of those elderly that can afford to pay, and those that can't, AND EVERYONE denied treatment by the NHS due to lack of resources... and I'm the one that's lost my head ??

 

[blightymam]

Didn't say you lost your head, just said you've not thought it through. You've not answered any of my points at all, just keep banging on about charging wealthy old folk without really looking into it. I may as well say let's make martians pay! It's just as helpful without thinking it through and finding out how it will work.

 

[HawkEye244]

Didn't say you lost your head, just said you've not thought it through. You've not answered any of my points at all, just keep banging on about charging wealthy old folk without really looking into it. I may as well say let's make martians pay! It's just as helpful without thinking it through and finding out how it will work.

It will never happen anyway. What's the point in bothering to go into detail about this.

 

[blightymam]

It will never happen anyway. What's the point in bothering to go into detail about this.

With the greatest respect, that's a bit of a cop out!