The shame of Grenfell

Yeah the whole thing stinks, findings pre/during construction regarding the flammable effectiveness of the cladding product maybe not overtly buried as such, however the company were aware and didn't act.

For those that were involved in not making the necessary changes (I mean the individuals not companies), and they'll know who they are even if the inquiry never pinpoints them, they need to live with the consequence of their actions or should I say lack of. However such people often don't have a conscious so they'll just be in avoiding blame mode.

The whole approach would have been different to the inquiry had the building been filled with middle/upper class folk especially if any of them were tory donors.

You can blame the Chelsea and Kensington borough council for that, they stipulated the costs that needed to be adhered to, including not upgrading the fire systems.

Though to be honest I don't believe it came down to who was in the flats.

Had the cladding and insulation suppliers not lied about the safety data sheets their material wouldn't have been specified and wouldn't have passed building control and inspection.
 
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I suggest we have:

A Housing Minister in the government responsible for making it work...

"Barwell told the Commons in October 2016 that part B of the building regulations, which cover fire safety, would be reviewed as part of a process following a 2009 fire at a tower block.

The blaze at Lakanal House in Camberwell, south-east London, killed six people, with
an inquest finding it spread because botched renovations compromised fire stopping between the flats.

“We have not set out any formal plans to review the building regulations as a whole, but we have publicly committed ourselves to reviewing part B following the Lakanal House fire,” Barwell said. However, since then his department has not published any review. "

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ged-by-minister-last-year-yet-to-be-published

Dr Jim Glocking, technical director of the Fire Protection Association (FPA), an industry body, said his organisation had been pushing for a review of fire-related building regulations for some time.

“While we have lobbied long and hard to changes to building regulations, the groups responsible have remained resolutely intransigent to opening up a review,” he said.

"“Various ministers have said over the years that there will be an imminent review, but it keeps being put on hold, in spite of organisations like ourselves campaigning very hard.”

Among the areas the FPA wanted reviewed, Glocking said, was a lack of compulsion for external insulation underneath cladding on tower blocks to be fire resistant, and tighter regulations over timber-framed buildings, now the most common method for social housing.

Ronnie King, formerly the chief fire officer and now honorary secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on fire safety and rescue, said the regulations “badly need updating” and “three successive ministers have not done it”. "
 
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You haven't heard about the 'fire doors' yet, & that company has already been thoroughly dismantled & all the money put well away from the clutches of the greedy little peoples ?
 
You haven't heard about the 'fire doors' yet, & that company has already been thoroughly dismantled & all the money put well away from the clutches of the greedy little peoples ?

Maybe but the fire doors were pretty useless when the whole outside of the building was on fire.

Its also dependent on the dickhead that installs them.
 
I think the tower fire was just a fraction of the problem, it is far greater, we pay a LABC to control what is done in buildings, and they have failed again and again to do their job, and it seems no one is ever found guilty of dereliction of duty.

Back in the 70's I worked for a council, and it was decided they were wasting money, so some system needed to be put in to show we were earning our keep, so the department I worked for roads and bridges, decided to put in a bonus scheme, and to be frank we were not over worked, was not unknown for us to play foot ball in the workshop.

The result was we did not have enough work, so we started to do work for other departments, health and safety, the theatre, the library department, etc. What became very evident was some departments worked very hard, and some were getting money for nothing. It was hard to believe we were all working for the same council.

However to sack some one working for the council was hard, there would be sidewards moves to put them out of harms way, but you really had to do something really bad in most cases, there were exceptions, the tender system resulted in driving 20 miles to get a tyre valve, so not unknown to buy one with ones own money and book some overtime, which if caught would mean the sack, but not for poor workmanship.

And it seems little has changed, not only the council, when the Part P law was being debated, it was pointed out the average percent of workers who get alzheimer's before retirement age, and the view was expressed that we should see that percent at least of people who were thrown off the schemes, not really a valid argument as people would remove themselves from the schemes, but there does seem to be very few who are told sorry we will have to let you go, and the council workers know this, and fail to do their job.

In some ways it seems wrong, one mistake and down the road, however it is the threat of such which keeps most of us on our toes, we say "jobs worth" but is that so bad? If you do the job wrong you should be taken to task, even when lives are not lost, Nick Leeson of Barings Bank fame had imprisonment as a result of doing a bad job, and workers should not be exempt when they over or under step the mark.

But when I had my accident I knew who was to blame, and that was not my foreman, but he lost his job, and what we really don't know is who actually made the mistake to the Grenfell tower, was it a rouge inspector, who set out to hide what was going on, or was it a group of people, clearly down to the LABC but the LABC is made up of people, and what is not so sure is how it really happened, were the inspectors over worked, were there back handers, how were so many high rise flats clad with the same material without anyone realising it was wrong? One LABC OK I can understand, but there were so many.

I would guess every trade has had something similar but not the deaths of this one. In my own trade as an electrician we are seeing arguments over the EICR for rented property, be it metal consumer unit, or RCD protection we debate what the rules require, and if the electrical safety council says a plastic fuse box with no RCD protection is still serviceable we tend to accept it. We accept their interpretation of the joint IET and BSi rule book. We consider them as an authority, but in real terms they have no official standing, I could call myself the council for electrical safety and publish my own views.

In the same way as before I retired I was a member of the IET, I suspect there is some organisation who bring the LABC inspectors together, and decide what the national standard should be, and the same way in which the IET listen to the London Fire brigade when writing the rules book I am sure what ever organisation brings the LABC inspectors together does the same.

But once I complete the wiring and issue the installation certificate, that is it, I can't in the future decide ups I got it wrong, and issue a re-call, Omar Khayyám lived 18 May 1048 – 4 December 1131 and even back then he realised
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

So once passed it has passed, if I built a house with planning permission if 5 years latter the council said sorry we got it wrong, you can't build that, I would not be assumed, and I would want compensation. Once the completion certificate has been issued I am home and dry, if there are errors tough it's too late. And if the council realise they should have not granted permission, then they need to pay for their error. And it seems the councils have made errors, and issued completion certificates they should not have issued, so they need to pay, or prove the builder did some thing underhanded.


b,
 
Everyone seems to be happy to ignore the fact it's celotex and Arco fault for using dodgy safety certs.

It's also the UK's fault for not having a testing and certification regime that works.
 
Would you be surprised to know that four Housing Ministers were advised of the danger from wrapping blocks of flats in flammable materials? And did nothing about it?

How many of them do you think should have been elevated to the House of Lords after their dereliction became known?

What do you think about this one, for example?

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/new...months-before-grenfell-new-letters-show-61883

"Gavin Barwell, who was housing minister in 2016 and 2017, received seven letters from the group of MPs responsible for scrutinising fire safety rules between September 2016 and May 2017 – with the last landing just 26 days before the fire at Grenfell Tower.


The letters warned of the risk of a deadly fire and called for a promised review of building regulations and fire safety to be carried out to prevent it.


But Mr Barwell sent just three short replies during this period and became so bad at replying that the group resorted to sending their letters by recorded delivery."
 
Why is it the Government’s fault that- EU Manufacturers fake fire tests...
Architects specify said products to be used..
Installers fit products incorrectly.,,,
Houde Builders don’t check compliance.,,,
NHBC disappear.....
Local authorities sign off....
but it’s all Boris’s fault .....,,,
Only a complete brain dead idiot would blame our Government for Grenfell.......
Then to top it all off “Dame” Lawrence says that if the occupants had all been white, the fire brigade would have saved more lives...,
Shocking...
 
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Years ago (pre EU) we had “British Standard “ kitemark.
Hopefully now we’ve left the festering swamp we can raise our standards to what it was before.
 
Why is it the Government’s fault that....

That the government wouldn't update fire safety standards? Even when asked to? After previous examples of fires in multi-story homes?

Because that's their job.

Why is it the Government’s fault that....

That we had a government opposed to regulation and standards and safety?

Because that was their policy.

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Who do you think is in charge of English Building Regulations?

Unicorns?
 
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