Transexuality

[Roy Bloom]

I've started this thread because gant wanted to inrtroduce the subject into a political thread. I don't think it should be a political football. others might agree with gant that it ought to be.
I'll allow the mods, and other contributors to decide. If their comments are restricted to this thread, or continue in the other thread, I'll follow their lead.
Although that will depend on the value I apply to their comments, based on (IMO) the value of their previous comments.

So I've copied JohnD's recent posts into here as a starter, to which I'll respond in here. I do appreciate that might make it difficult for others to follow the gist of the discussion. If the mods want the onerous task of moving other relevant posts into here, that's up to them.

The examples you give are not of Transsexuals.

I labelled such instances and conditions as disfigurements, disabilities, deformities, etc.
I don't see them as that. That suggests some sort of alienation. I see those differences merely as variations.

If you sincerely think that there is no such thing as a "woman" or a "man"

Of course those "definitions" or "concepts" exist, but they are societal, political, even religious concepts. And as societal, political or religious concepts there are societies in which other variations are recognised and accepted as normal.

Or that a person can change from one to the other by saying four words

Given the example I quoted, and there are other conditions that give rise to incorrectly labelled "sex" at birth, then it is not only possible, it really happens, that people are wrongly labelled at birth. Only since 2004 has it been possible, in UK, for people to change the registered sex on their birth certificate. So, yes, it is possible, with difficulty, for people to adopt the "other" gender/sex.
It does need considerably more than merely uttering some words. They have to convince a panel of experts.
Now "adopting" a different gender is another issue. And people don't physically change, but they adopt their preferred gender. Maybe a physical change is not required, in their case, for their physique to better resemble their adopted gender.

Then you live in a world of fantasy.

I would like to live in a more tolerant world, if that is a fantasy, it doesn't and won't stop me striving for it.

If a person who is an actual woman wears a T Shirt proclaiming herself to be a woman, and reminding the ignorant or deluded what a "woman" is
Then it can be a label

I'd call that a political or philosophical statement.
a) the wearer feels the need to bring sex and gender into the political debate.
b) the wearer feels the need to make sex and gender a philosophical debate.
Your use of language describing others as deluded or ignorant because they disagree with you does nothing to further the debate.

Just as much as if you wore a cap saying "bus driver."

If the cap, or whatever also had the definition of what a busdriver is, then it becomes more than a mere label.

But it is expressing neither a preference nor a gender.

No, of course not because a busdriver is not a recognised sex or gender. But it is expressing an opinion of what they think a busdriver is or should be.

Edit: sorry, I never read your comment properly. Sex wasn't mentioned about the busdriver label.
But my point applies, if the cap included the preferred definition of the occupation, then it becomes a political statement, not just a label.

 

[JP_]

Of course those "definitions" or "concepts" exist, but they are societal, political, even religious concepts. And as societal, political or religious concepts there are societies in which other variations are recognised and accepted as normal.

They are also biological concepts...

 

[Roy Bloom]

They are also biological concepts...

Yes, but society, religion, philosophy, politics, etc define that there are only two sexes allowable, within Western society.
Other societies have different ideas. So in western society, we only recognise the two extremes of a spectrum. We refuse to acknolwedge the positions between the extremes, or at least we refuse to provide a label for those infinite number of variations.

 

[JP_]

We refuse to acknolwedge the positions between the extremes

No we don't, so long as we are talking about how people identify themselves.

You must admit, it would be rather difficult to draw up a new policy based on an " infinite number of variations".

Most people are either male or female, men or women. A tiny, tiny minority of people, who also are very, very vocal, have an opinion that ignores basic biology.

 

[motorbiking]

It’s also linked to mental illness, which is also no very politically correct to say.

 

[nwgs]

Doesn’t seem like John D is taking the bait. And after all that efforts.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Most people are either male or female, men or women. A tiny, tiny minority of people, who also are very, very vocal, have an opinion that ignores basic biology.

The medical profession seems to see this a little more clearly: on a fairly recent visit to A&E the forms I had to fill in asked my assigned gender at birth. I queried this and was told that there was a small percentage of people in the world who think that self-identifying as a man or a woman makes then whatever they want to be. Apparently, in biological terms, it does not. Who'd have thought it?

 

[Odds]

No we don't, so long as we are talking about how people identify themselves.

You must admit, it would be rather difficult to draw up a new policy based on an " infinite number of variations".

Most people are either male or female, men or women. A tiny, tiny minority of people, who also are very, very vocal, have an opinion that ignores basic biology.

Sharon Davies has taken a good deal of stick from Trans Activists for her forthright opinions on trans swimmers being allowed into pro sport. Even worse, they've targeted her kids at school.

 

[Roy Bloom]

No we don't, so long as we are talking about how people identify themselves.

Yes, except at birth there are still only two choices. It can't be left blank, and TBD is not a valid entry,

You must admit, it would be rather difficult to draw up a new policy based on an " infinite number of variations".

Such an option isn't necessary.
The obvious other choices are: "non-binary", or "TBD".

Most people are either male or female, men or women. A tiny, tiny minority of people, who also are very, very vocal, have an opinion that ignores basic biology.

I belive a about 10% of the population is the best guess, but I might have my decoimal point in the wrong place (no pun intended), and being "very, very vocal" is just your perception.
It's very difficult to estimate because of the question: what are you estimating? Non-binary, gender-fluid, gay, unnasigned gender, transgender, etc.
And I'm sure there are many that would not admit to their preferred gender or sexuality. Although I suspect people nowadays are much more likely to respond honestly than say. 25 years ago.
Who knows what the real estimate might be, say in another 25 years.

Studies estimate that gender-diverse persons represent 0.1 to 2% of populations investigated, but no such assessment was performed in Latin America. In a representative sample of Brazil’s adult population (n = 6000), we investigated participants' sociodemographic characteristics and possible associations between these and current gender identity, categorized as cisgender, transgender or non-binary gender.

Proportion of people identified as transgender and non-binary gender in Brazil - Scientific Reports

Studies estimate that gender-diverse persons represent 0.1 to 2% of populations investigated, but no such assessment was performed in Latin America. In a representative sample of Brazil’s adult population (n = 6000), we investigated participants' sociodemographic characteristics and possible...

www.nature.com

About 5% of young adults in the U.S. say their gender is different from their sex assigned at birth

About 5% of young adults in the U.S. say their gender is different from their sex assigned at birth

1.6% of U.S. adults are transgender or nonbinary. Also, a rising share of Americans say they know someone who is transgender.

www.pewresearch.org

About 5 percent of young adults identify as transgender or nonbinary, U.S. survey finds
Adults younger than 30 are more likely than older adults to say their gender differs from their sex assigned at birth, a new Pew Research Center report found.

Over 5 percent of young adults identify as trans or nonbinary, U.S. survey finds

Adults younger than 30 are more likely than older adults to say their gender differs from their sex assigned at birth, a new Pew Research Center report found.

www.nbcnews.com

There are 262,000 people living in England and Wales in March 2021 who identified with a gender different from their sex registered at birth, according to the latest Census 2021 figures out today.

First census estimates on gender identity and sexual orientation - Office for National Statistics

New studies find millions of young nonbinary and transgender Americans

New studies find millions of young nonbinary and transgender Americans

Story at a glance Roughly 1.6 percent of American adults are now transgender or nonbinary, according to a 2022 survey. That number is higher still among young adults, with 5 percent of people…

thehill.com

 

[Roy Bloom]

It’s also linked to mental illness, which is also no very politically correct to say.

Or some may assign gender disphoria as mental illness.

 

[Roy Bloom]

The medical profession seems to see this a little more clearly: on a fairly recent visit to A&E the forms I had to fill in asked my assigned gender at birth. I queried this and was told that there was a small percentage of people in the world who think that self-identifying as a man or a woman makes then whatever they want to be. Apparently, in biological terms, it does not. Who'd have thought it?

In biological terms there are many, many who cannot reproduce. I believe the firgure for couples is between 10 and 20%. I'm sure that celibacy in singles adds quite a fair bit to that.
How does that affect their assigned sex if the biological reason for sex is to reproduce?

 

[Roy Bloom]

Sharon Davies has taken a good deal of stick from Trans Activists for her forthright opinions on trans swimmers being allowed into pro sport. Even worse, they've targeted her kids at school.

I think the governing bodies for sport should be allowed to set their rules for who can compete and in which categories.
Sports people should make their views known to those governong bodies rather than stirring up a public debate.

Howver I absolutely do not believe that male sport people would declare themselves transgender just to compete in a women's category.
There are a couple of examples in sport of transgenders competing, but they are living their life in that gender. It isn't a cloak they've donned in order to commpete, which they discard afterwards.

And now that the governing bodies are setting the rules, it's problem solved, for the women's sports.
The transgenders cam enter an open category, except very few exist.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

How does that affect their assigned sex if the biological reason for sex is to reproduce?

In biological terms your sex determines at least some of the ailments you can be afflicted with. It isn't a matter of personal preference.

TBH there are many far more important issues than this in our society today which are being pushed out of the light by this issue.

 

[Brigadier]

Howver I absolutely do not believe that male sport people would declare themselves transgender just to compete in a women's category.

Athletes have routinely taken PEDs, despite knowing they may harm them in the mid to long-term, may get them sanctioned (up to life bans).
Some do it repeatedly; brazenly, even.
"Asthma" among pro cyclists is common, as this permits clembutorol to be prescribed (steroid which burns fat; ideal for upping power-to-weight ratio).
The Spanish para-basketball team was almost exclusively made up of players without learning difficulties.

A not-insignificant number of athletes cheat, in all manner of ways.



"Absolutely", you say?

 

[Ihavenojob]

Or some may assign gender disphoria as mental illness.

Don't know about that, but gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.