Veritas 8 - Repair, Replace or Upgrade
- Thread starter twodoctors
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Battery changed about a year ago. It solved the problem at the time. I thought the unit will keep it charged... Anyway can't see how a flat battery will cause the fuse to blow.
Adrian
Adrian
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C
chaindaisy
Hi Adrian,
If you've decided in your own mind that you intend to change the panel, there is nothing that I or anyone else is going to do or say to change your mind. It should be remembered that you are not a novice by any means, you noticed a buzz from the transformer and tightened it, most people wouldn't know what to do in those circumstances. Let's start from the idea that you may want to change the panel, you say:-
"..... Anyway can't see how a flat battery will cause the fuse to blow.... "
Unfortunately it can. We would need to go into the realms of how the power supply is built and performing in order to discuss that, so let's just accept that fact for now.
A flat battery can also be the cause of mysterious alarms sounding for no apparent reason. Am I suggesting that all your problems relate solely to the battery ? No, You suggest that you have had problems with builders and so on, forgive me if I am wrong on this since I am writing without your posts in front of me, but it appears that way.
The end product of immediately buying a new panel could be a peace at last scenario where everything is silent and working correctly, let's hope that is the case. However, you could install a new panel and still have the existing faults.
Before replacing a panel, and particularly in a blown fuse situation, I tend to look beyond the unit. Are there bare wires touching somewhere ? Has someone put a nail through a cable ? Am I totally convinced that I know where every single cable run is in the property and that they have not been damaged. There are other areas to be looked at but let's keep the argument simple for now.
I would suggest that you look again very closely at the pcb and check for burn or scorch marks around a resistor which is situated fairly close to the battery leads. This is a current limiting resistor, and the first to burn out when there are big problems with the battery. If the resistor shows no signs of burn then try the following.
Label all the cable pairs leading to devices, including tamper to the bell and the devices. Remove them, place insulating tape over the ends so that they don't touch the pcb or anything else in the panel. then place a metal or wire link in the terminal pairs. Remove the battery. Check all fuses, particularly the auxillary fuse and replace if necessary. You are now soak testing the panel.
With Mains only, driving the panel, close the cover, clear any tamper faults with your code and leave the panel on test for an hour or so. If at this juncture warning lights appear on the panel or keypad, then it is possible, but not entirely proven, that you have a fault in the panel. Make a note of any warning light.
On the other hand, you may want to buy a new panel and hope that will be the cure, if so, please disregard these notes.
Take Care.
If you've decided in your own mind that you intend to change the panel, there is nothing that I or anyone else is going to do or say to change your mind. It should be remembered that you are not a novice by any means, you noticed a buzz from the transformer and tightened it, most people wouldn't know what to do in those circumstances. Let's start from the idea that you may want to change the panel, you say:-
"..... Anyway can't see how a flat battery will cause the fuse to blow.... "
Unfortunately it can. We would need to go into the realms of how the power supply is built and performing in order to discuss that, so let's just accept that fact for now.
A flat battery can also be the cause of mysterious alarms sounding for no apparent reason. Am I suggesting that all your problems relate solely to the battery ? No, You suggest that you have had problems with builders and so on, forgive me if I am wrong on this since I am writing without your posts in front of me, but it appears that way.
The end product of immediately buying a new panel could be a peace at last scenario where everything is silent and working correctly, let's hope that is the case. However, you could install a new panel and still have the existing faults.
Before replacing a panel, and particularly in a blown fuse situation, I tend to look beyond the unit. Are there bare wires touching somewhere ? Has someone put a nail through a cable ? Am I totally convinced that I know where every single cable run is in the property and that they have not been damaged. There are other areas to be looked at but let's keep the argument simple for now.
I would suggest that you look again very closely at the pcb and check for burn or scorch marks around a resistor which is situated fairly close to the battery leads. This is a current limiting resistor, and the first to burn out when there are big problems with the battery. If the resistor shows no signs of burn then try the following.
Label all the cable pairs leading to devices, including tamper to the bell and the devices. Remove them, place insulating tape over the ends so that they don't touch the pcb or anything else in the panel. then place a metal or wire link in the terminal pairs. Remove the battery. Check all fuses, particularly the auxillary fuse and replace if necessary. You are now soak testing the panel.
With Mains only, driving the panel, close the cover, clear any tamper faults with your code and leave the panel on test for an hour or so. If at this juncture warning lights appear on the panel or keypad, then it is possible, but not entirely proven, that you have a fault in the panel. Make a note of any warning light.
On the other hand, you may want to buy a new panel and hope that will be the cure, if so, please disregard these notes.
Take Care.
C
chaindaisy
Hi Joe,
Yes, I follow your reasoning on that score, but I would prefer to carry out some simple tests anyway. Adrian changed the battery about a year ago, so it couldn't be a duff battery could it, not in twelve months ? Unfortunately, yes it could. I had one off the shelf, bought, paid for, and returned within the hour. So your reasoning is sound. We don't know what Adrian's next move is yet though, he may have already gone out and bought a new panel for all we know. He may not decide to test the panel without the battery, that's his choice really. We are here to help out as much as we can, but at the end of the day it's up to the OP to decide what he's going to do. As I mentioned earlier, or maybe in another post, a duff battery can cause all sorts of weird and wonderful problems, this is why I have asked for a panel test without the battery.
Good to hear from you again,
Take Care,
Yes, I follow your reasoning on that score, but I would prefer to carry out some simple tests anyway. Adrian changed the battery about a year ago, so it couldn't be a duff battery could it, not in twelve months ? Unfortunately, yes it could. I had one off the shelf, bought, paid for, and returned within the hour. So your reasoning is sound. We don't know what Adrian's next move is yet though, he may have already gone out and bought a new panel for all we know. He may not decide to test the panel without the battery, that's his choice really. We are here to help out as much as we can, but at the end of the day it's up to the OP to decide what he's going to do. As I mentioned earlier, or maybe in another post, a duff battery can cause all sorts of weird and wonderful problems, this is why I have asked for a panel test without the battery.
Good to hear from you again,
Take Care,
Thanks for the replies and thanks chaindaisy for the detailed analysis.
I took the PCB off the panel and found one transistor (or what looks like a transistor) that looked burnt (scorched marks on the writing) and dodgy-looking soldering. Not sure which part of the circuit it's responsible for but hopefully that's the reason why it's caused the burnt fuse, and not any other component. We haven't had any work done recently except out bathroom, but that's well away from all the alarm wirings, judging by the location of the PIRs. Also found the manufacture date of the alarm (May 2005). 7 years, is that the lifespan of a typical household alarm?
I haven't ordered the new alarm yet as I am still undecided on which brand to go for. Having the panel in the hot water tank cupboard isn't the best but I am not expert enough to move it to another location.... Well I can but I am no good at hiding wires and plastering etc :-p
I'm sure you've gathered by now that I'm not an electrician or a plumber. Only a DIYer with a GCSE A grade in what used to be called Craft Design and Technology, and a bit of hobby-level electronics background (when I was a lad). :-p
Thanks for all your help once again. Another other advice gratefully received.
Adrian
I took the PCB off the panel and found one transistor (or what looks like a transistor) that looked burnt (scorched marks on the writing) and dodgy-looking soldering. Not sure which part of the circuit it's responsible for but hopefully that's the reason why it's caused the burnt fuse, and not any other component. We haven't had any work done recently except out bathroom, but that's well away from all the alarm wirings, judging by the location of the PIRs. Also found the manufacture date of the alarm (May 2005). 7 years, is that the lifespan of a typical household alarm?
I haven't ordered the new alarm yet as I am still undecided on which brand to go for. Having the panel in the hot water tank cupboard isn't the best but I am not expert enough to move it to another location.... Well I can but I am no good at hiding wires and plastering etc :-p
I'm sure you've gathered by now that I'm not an electrician or a plumber. Only a DIYer with a GCSE A grade in what used to be called Craft Design and Technology, and a bit of hobby-level electronics background (when I was a lad). :-p
Thanks for all your help once again. Another other advice gratefully received.
Adrian
C
chaindaisy
Hi Adrian,
To be honest, I don't think any of us care whether you are a Phd in electronics or just another guy, like us, who is prepared to have a go, so don't put yourself down.. you're worth more than that.
Sometimes, a bit of a scorch mark can be simply due to a heatsink getting too hot. That said, it's not a good sign. None of us could say for certain what it means without actually seeing it. If, however, it is the voltage regulator or any component part of the power supply then things do not look good.
Although it is not a visionary idea to place the control panel in the hot water tank cupboard, it is done on occasion with no problems. As long as it's a fair distance from the tank itself and, of course, away from the hot pipes.
Due to your finding a scorch mark on the board, there is every possibility that someone is going to suggest that you change the panel immediately. I don't like doing this until I have seen the problem, if it is one, for myself. At the end of the day, I am trying to save you money. If we can avoid paying for a new panel then that's alright by me.
The reason I specifically asked you to carry out the tests in a previous post was to determine once and for all whether a battery fault has caused irreperable damage to the control panel. There is a general consensus of opinion that you have a battery fault, I don't disagree with the comments, they make sense, but I have not proven that yet to my own satisfaction.
I should repeat however, that a battery fault can lead to damage to the control panel. It is possible that the scorch marks you see are due to such a fault. But ... it is not proven, and the only way we are going to find out is if you carry out the tests which I have outlined above. i.e. Link tests. From what you say, I have every confidence that you are able to test this panel.
There are other reasons for testing the panel before going out to buy a new one. First and foremost, the faults which appear to be emanating from the panel may well be due to a fault at any one of the devices including the bell. Changing a panel in this case would mean that you are still stuck with the fault and a spare panel.
I must confess that at this point it is not looking good for the panel, and as others have suggested, nor the battery. However, I don't know how other engineers go about resolving problems but I base all my decisions on evidence. I need evidence before I am able to make a categoric statement. I can only adduce that evidence if certain tests are performed.
If the scenario is such that a mere 7 year old panel has bitten the dust, then I believe your choice of panel should be close to the one you have now. Perhaps something like a 9448 with remote (if there is one !!), a texecom or a castle. The guys on the site have their own preferences so we'll let them decide what is best. As for lifespan, perhaps I should insert that my panel was installed in 1994 without a day's problem. I don't bother with it, except to change the battery every three years. Detectors should last a minimum of ten years, my detectors, chosen off the shelf and nothing special, are still going strong and the most they have had is a feather duster once a year.
You owe it to yourself to perform a 'Link test' before you go any further, but the decision is yours. If a link test proves satisfactory then we would need to test the battery, there is a very simple way of doing this without electronic test equipment, but we'll go there when we need to.
Let the forum know how you are getting on and what you decide.
Take Care.
To be honest, I don't think any of us care whether you are a Phd in electronics or just another guy, like us, who is prepared to have a go, so don't put yourself down.. you're worth more than that.
Sometimes, a bit of a scorch mark can be simply due to a heatsink getting too hot. That said, it's not a good sign. None of us could say for certain what it means without actually seeing it. If, however, it is the voltage regulator or any component part of the power supply then things do not look good.
Although it is not a visionary idea to place the control panel in the hot water tank cupboard, it is done on occasion with no problems. As long as it's a fair distance from the tank itself and, of course, away from the hot pipes.
Due to your finding a scorch mark on the board, there is every possibility that someone is going to suggest that you change the panel immediately. I don't like doing this until I have seen the problem, if it is one, for myself. At the end of the day, I am trying to save you money. If we can avoid paying for a new panel then that's alright by me.
The reason I specifically asked you to carry out the tests in a previous post was to determine once and for all whether a battery fault has caused irreperable damage to the control panel. There is a general consensus of opinion that you have a battery fault, I don't disagree with the comments, they make sense, but I have not proven that yet to my own satisfaction.
I should repeat however, that a battery fault can lead to damage to the control panel. It is possible that the scorch marks you see are due to such a fault. But ... it is not proven, and the only way we are going to find out is if you carry out the tests which I have outlined above. i.e. Link tests. From what you say, I have every confidence that you are able to test this panel.
There are other reasons for testing the panel before going out to buy a new one. First and foremost, the faults which appear to be emanating from the panel may well be due to a fault at any one of the devices including the bell. Changing a panel in this case would mean that you are still stuck with the fault and a spare panel.
I must confess that at this point it is not looking good for the panel, and as others have suggested, nor the battery. However, I don't know how other engineers go about resolving problems but I base all my decisions on evidence. I need evidence before I am able to make a categoric statement. I can only adduce that evidence if certain tests are performed.
If the scenario is such that a mere 7 year old panel has bitten the dust, then I believe your choice of panel should be close to the one you have now. Perhaps something like a 9448 with remote (if there is one !!), a texecom or a castle. The guys on the site have their own preferences so we'll let them decide what is best. As for lifespan, perhaps I should insert that my panel was installed in 1994 without a day's problem. I don't bother with it, except to change the battery every three years. Detectors should last a minimum of ten years, my detectors, chosen off the shelf and nothing special, are still going strong and the most they have had is a feather duster once a year.
You owe it to yourself to perform a 'Link test' before you go any further, but the decision is yours. If a link test proves satisfactory then we would need to test the battery, there is a very simple way of doing this without electronic test equipment, but we'll go there when we need to.
Let the forum know how you are getting on and what you decide.
Take Care.
Please PM me how you would suggest he does this, I'm intrigued.
I'll then do my own test your way and then with an electronic tester, just to see how the answers differ.
Eueoplex
C
chaindaisy
Thanks for the challenge... and your obvious curiosity.
As you are well aware, a definitive battery test and confirmatory results are dependant on electronic measurements. If you are in any doubt as to the precise methodology endorsed by the industry, a pdf on the subject is freely available on the internet. You may also access Yuasa, where full details are available. At this juncture however, I am concerned with Adrian's situation and am therefore not disposed to entering into discourse of any nature which detracts from the matter to hand. My humble apologies for not being of a mind to accomodate you at this time. Suffice to add that in Adrian's case neither the requirement nor acquisition of electronic test equipment need be addressed as a matter of urgency at this juncture.
As you are well aware, a definitive battery test and confirmatory results are dependant on electronic measurements. If you are in any doubt as to the precise methodology endorsed by the industry, a pdf on the subject is freely available on the internet. You may also access Yuasa, where full details are available. At this juncture however, I am concerned with Adrian's situation and am therefore not disposed to entering into discourse of any nature which detracts from the matter to hand. My humble apologies for not being of a mind to accomodate you at this time. Suffice to add that in Adrian's case neither the requirement nor acquisition of electronic test equipment need be addressed as a matter of urgency at this juncture.
C
chaindaisy
That's fair comment Europlex, I am trying to keep this post clear from our differences, for which I accept full responsibility for being so childish,since I do no want Adrian to go off topic until he has made a decision. We can always discuss battery testing (the professional way, and the not so professional way, which I use ) at some other date. It seems that Adrian has made up his mind that he wants to change the panel from what I have read, and I am not in a position to offer advice on that, since I tend to be a Scantronic person and there are many on the forum who would disagree with me. I think it might be better if we wait on Adrian's final 'say so' and throw in our preferences as far as panels are concerned. But there again, the Christmas miracle might happen and Adrian could come back and tell us that his panel is working perfectly. In which case, we can all have a ding dong about what is the best battery to use.
Take Care Mate,
Take Care Mate,
Hi chaindaisy,
I've pretty much set on getting another the panel. I will still need to disconnect all the sensors and label the wires prior to that so I might just give the panel a run through. I have a limited supply of fuse (whatever spare one was in the panel at the time, maybe 3 left) so we'll see how that goes.
Could I just clarify that I need to close the connections on the sensors/pir after disconnection? Also if I disconnect the external siren, can I assume the internal buzzer will still sound if not disconnected yet? I'm assuming you have good working knowledge of the Texecom R8, sorry!
Also if you have time could you how the external siren works? I'm assuming the 12v and ground are the power supply, and it will trigger if there is a lost signal via either one of the other 3 input. Or is it the other way round? I'm asking as I'm a bit scared setting the siren off the next time I reconnect the siren with a incomplete/faulty alarm install. Can I assume that the 12V supply charges a large capacity in the siren box which discharges over time when the alarm triggers? Or is it a battery inside there? To ask how to disable the external sounder would make me sound like a burglar! javascript:emoticon('
')
Let you know how I get on.
Adrian
I've pretty much set on getting another the panel. I will still need to disconnect all the sensors and label the wires prior to that so I might just give the panel a run through. I have a limited supply of fuse (whatever spare one was in the panel at the time, maybe 3 left) so we'll see how that goes.
Could I just clarify that I need to close the connections on the sensors/pir after disconnection? Also if I disconnect the external siren, can I assume the internal buzzer will still sound if not disconnected yet? I'm assuming you have good working knowledge of the Texecom R8, sorry!
Also if you have time could you how the external siren works? I'm assuming the 12v and ground are the power supply, and it will trigger if there is a lost signal via either one of the other 3 input. Or is it the other way round? I'm asking as I'm a bit scared setting the siren off the next time I reconnect the siren with a incomplete/faulty alarm install. Can I assume that the 12V supply charges a large capacity in the siren box which discharges over time when the alarm triggers? Or is it a battery inside there? To ask how to disable the external sounder would make me sound like a burglar! javascript:emoticon('
')Let you know how I get on.
Adrian
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