Warning Dulux satinwood external quickdrying paint :P

[jimbobo]

Ok first off i have nothing against water based products unlike many older decorators i know.

Before people try to tell me i am painting wrong i have painted probally 1000 doors in the last 6 years

OK i had a conservatory to paint, It was made out of hardwood and pre primed and undercoated by manufactorer.. The only way the will gurantee this for 6 years, the primer & undercoast is oil (solvent) based and the top coat water based dulux weathershield satinwood..

OK use synthetic brushes - mostly always do (purdy)

Now with the doors i and all other pro decorators do the cutting in bits first then and all the feats on a door then the flat parts to get the best finnish with all the lines in the right place.

So i do this with the water based satin finnish and i get near enough diffrent colours where the lines meet. I made sure it wasnt my painting by doing the middle section at the same time as the upsection making sure paint was drying at the same time! but not where brush goes up and along it looks diffrent!

I dont know the answer to this with this paint, But my answer to get a perfect job at the moment is to use NORMAL solvent based satinwood paint which i have NEVER had a problem with and finnish fine everytime.

I will be calling the dulux rep but the score with them is its never there fault This has been a nightmare for me as i will have to drive 50miles and paint 6 doors again! The windows and frames where all the lines flow in same way look fine ! its when you have sections which go diffrent ways.. IT is not a case of needing more coats either because i tested this by giving a few doors 4/5 coats on the middle section to try to get rid of the lines but to no avail!

On a side note i have been using dulux aquatec wood paint and find it is an amazing product! also dulux qd primer undercoat (great) diamondglaze (fantastic).

Its very hard explaining to clients why the finnish looks like this. Especially when it was only guranteed that if they want a satin external finnish they need to use this paint.

OK my rant over but please people tell me where im going wrong am i using the wrong brush or what? i can take photos today of all the doors i have painted with standard solvent paint 1 - 5 years on still look perfect and this is on the coast. Now i paint 6 doors with this and they look bad.

Ideas

 

[Zampa]

Was it a dark colour mate?..you can sometimes get a thing called 'floatation'...it happen when certain pigments rise to the surface of the paint film..happens a lot with olive green for some reason and oily dark colours like french blue

Is the paint drying too quick?..that could leave the impression thats its different shades, as can laying off in one direction and then another.

You get the same effect as when you have a 'nap' in fabric.

Im sure your doing everything right...those water based paints can be really tempremental.

As for Aquatec..I hate the stuff...used it on an old peoples home, inside it took longer than oil based to dry, stank, didnt cover to well and looked as if it was going to yellow...Although I must say it went on a treat and has the best gloss of any of the W/B products...It might be ok on an outside

Diamond matt.. had a terrible time with that ... you cut a wall in...roll it...and it rips the paint from the cutting in off!...bit like water based gloss picking up from over brushing...its the ordinary name for Dulux 'real life emulsion'

It has a higher sheen level than vinyl matt (dulux admitted that) and a weird feel to it when its dry.

I know what you mean about ring Dulux...every time ive spoken to their tech support I get answer number 6 page three of the training catalogue..'ive never heard of that happening before'...I normally say..are you a painter?...when they say 'no' I tell them to ask one!

I doubt if its a faulty product...it probably a common fault/characteristic of the product itself.

Best of luck

Whats the betting the first thing they ask you is....'have you stirred it'

 

[Third_Eye]

What is the colour ? What was the weather like on day of painting ? Me personally bought an Hamiltons Perfection Plus Synthetic Brush for £10 and i had to through it in the bin !

 

[jimbobo]

mate ur right i know as for the aquatech i used a dark brown colour and black The water based satin i used was guess what Dark greenish ! i see where your coming from, but really i tried lots of stuff to stop it drying out like painting the middle section and laying of the up part and the side part at same time to no avail! Im not sure what to do yet but you make much sense to me where are you based?

 

[Zampa]

Wales...

And I had a set of those hamiltions synthetic brushes..the 2 inch had alopecia I think!..too thin..no guts in em..they have made a rick there.

 

[Third_Eye]

Hehe, and when i threw in the bin the Hamiltons Perfection Plus Synthetic Brush for £10, i thought, i could use that expensive brush for cleaning my hawk & trowel. It is brilliant for this purpose, so i think i will e-mail Hamiltons to tell them ! Also, lads some colours do have problems with covering power, though each paint maker should be made to label the colours that are problem covering and shading. They should be made to label this on there shade cards. Rather than just write some deep colours may require additional coats, cos i know they know the problem colours etc..............Also, i know of a painter who had to walk of a big job (half way through). He was paining massive wooden cabins in an red colour. Basically he priced for scrape, prime, undercoat, then gloss, but when he started to gloss over recomended undercoat (recomended by paint maker) the gloss was not covering the undercoat. So he got a paint insector out who said "ON OUR SHADE CARDS WE WRITE THAT SOME COLOURS MAY REQUIRE ADDITIONAL COATINGS, SO IT AINT OUR PROBLEM MATEY" of which the painter walked of the job as he would be running at a loss due to paint makers arogance !

 

[Zampa]

If you dont rate the Hamilton...write an e mail to them...I wrote to them and had a grumble, they said it shouldnt have happened and sent me a pack of three (brushes!)

Interesting letter from them too...I also mentioned that the quality of the bristles their normal brushes had gone downhill over the years..beleive it or not that actually admitted it, explaining that it was down to the way farming has changed in china the the wild hogs are killed for their meat now...whereas in the past they would be kept alive longer for their bristle.

 

[confidentincompetent]

Ok first off i have nothing against water based products

OK use synthetic brushes - mostly always do (purdy)

Now with the doors i and all other pro decorators do the cutting in bits first then and all the feats on a door then the flat parts to get the best finnish with all the lines in the right place.

So i do this with the water based satin finnish and i get near enough diffrent colours where the lines meet. I made sure it wasnt my painting by doing the middle section at the same time as the upsection making sure paint was drying at the same time! but not where brush goes up and along it looks diffrent!





Ideas

Had same problem wit a dark brown (conker) only way I found to get over losing the green edge was to thin the paint down (water) and work in the shade. (not always possible !!).ended up giving three coats tho . I try to avoid this waterbased with colurs now, the white seems ok but such a pain to keep a wet edge. I go for the solvent as much as possible.

The dulux trade cards on their dodgy colurs have a tiny asterisk which usually denotes that extra coats may be required. But they dont seem to have any indications on the retail paints. I got caught out once with a colur called capricorn. Yet dulux make such a song that one coat of weathershield gloss will take the place of the traditional two coats of gloss for exteriors!!!
Anyway more rants to come lol starting me outsides next week so it will **** down rant and drought over lol.

 

[Third_Eye]

Yes, "confidentincompetent" i know about The dulux trade cards on their dodgy colurs have a tiny asterisk which usually denotes that extra coats may be required. Thing is non trade people or very busy painters can get caught out with the tiny asterisk, also in a way that you have mentioned also. To be honest with gloss these problem covering colours should not be allowed to be made in gloss form cos i know of many jobs where decorators have double or tripled glossed (as recomended by dulux) and a few years later the gloss starts peel away from gloss on gloss etc............

 

[jimbobo]

ah i wish the answer was extra bloody coats i can tell u now i could paint the doors 4/5 times and they it would be same coverage is not the problem its the shades. I think the nail has been hit on the head with the colour problem.

Why oh why couldnt the customer just of gone with a standard gloss simple 1/2 dark grey undercoats 1/2 gloss depending how it looked But no they have to get fancy then get funny when it doesnt go how they wanted.

Try bitting your tongue with a customer telling you how to paint a door i showed him about 4 times etc. What a life hey lol. Im going down the dulux place today they all know me in there so ima kick some ass.

Thing is i probally spend well over 5 - 10k a year on dulux materials, so really this should be sorted out,

Paint rep as said before will be

1 did you stir paint?
2 did you wash down surface prior to painting
3 was it raining lol
4 never known this before have a free litre

No seriously its in london this job and its costing me 15quid in petrol and of course all the time.

How can i posibly get the particles in the paint to dry at same time ? i was doing sections all at the same time in the end rather than traditional way.

Hamilton brushes my dad said exactly the same thing about these.

I have got used to the purdy brushes now i know many people dislike.

The purdy rollers i find fantastic the 9inch ones blue ish colour had mine now for 8 months and its still 100%. I used to go for the ICI sheep skin rollers cause they held loads of paint but after 4/5 where the skin came off the plastic i gave up on them

Nice to speak to other people in same game

 

[Zampa]

When the water based gloss'es first hit the market I talked a customer into using a poppy red on her garage door ...seven coats later!...I finished it

If im doing a job with one of those dodgy colours I either ask the person in the trade centre to mix the undercoat in the same colour as the gloss (ok for outsdies) or get a tin of eggshell in the same colour as the gloss...its works 90% of the time.

There is an additive you can put in water based paints to extend the drying time...not sure, but I think its made by polyvine.

Went to the interbuild show in the week..talking to a rep there (yawn! ) who told me that ALL oil based paint is going to be phased out by 2008 (not 100% sure about the exact date...I was half ****ed at the time )..

I said ive heard it all before, but he reckons they are serious this time..they have the technology already...but its all down to cost..some of the acrylic paints in the car industry or 40 odd quid a litre.

We have got a hell of a long way to go in order to get them up to scratch.

So chaps..(and chapess's)...start hoarding your oil based stuff!

 

[jimbobo]

Your right i heard this ages ago and nothing comes of it. I can see why its a good idea but with the problems i have had so far im a bit worried. I think it lasts ok but its the putting on thats the problem with it isnt it.

Great idea about the eggshell mate will deff remember that!

I went to the decorating shop today, they told me it can happen with dark colours esp with the water based ones. They want me to give them the can so they can send it to ICI to test it.. I was explaining to him about the lines he said its the way it flows etc. I know the bloke for a long time so he is understanding

NO doubt the paint will come back fine from ICI, they will probally spray it on Im thinking that if it turns out to be bad paint that they will pay for me to do it again? My dad a few years back got a emulsion mixed they did it in a slightly wrong colour and they paid his labour..

HE also said about using aquatech instead i explained about the manufactorers gurantee etc.

 

[Third_Eye]

It wouldnt be a problem if paint makers actually labeled the colours that need more coats. What i mean is not for them not to be lazy and just word "MAY REQUIRE ADDITIONAL COATS", what i mean is for them to do there HOMEWORK & label actual procedures i.e. if colour used in emulsion , then needs 5 coats AT MOST. or if used in gloss needs at least 3 coats AT MOST etc.........So that the decorator can price for additional coatings so that the decorator is not hoodwinked into using additional coats, whilst all the paint makers leave to go home at 5pm and passing the decorator who is on an outside at 7pm whilst using the guys going home at 5pm fckn paint !

 

[jdmccann]

painted some exterior windows using this product for the first time. Windows were previously glossed and not in bad condition. Cusomer had an extension built so wanted the whole lot doing.

Due to time of year (end of september) and customers desired finish chose the weathershield satinwood as wanted it quick drying. Also it had come recommended. 1 coat undercoat and 2 top coats all seemed fine.

4 weeks later i'm called back. Brown staining coming through the paint. Only on 3 of the windows (out of 16). The staining is in large squarish areas. Scratching my head as to the cause.

HELP!!!!

 

[owainglyndwr1416]

Ok first off i have nothing against water based products unlike many older decorators i know.

Before people try to tell me i am painting wrong i have painted probably 1000 doors in the last 6 years

OK i had a conservatory to paint, It was made out of hardwood and pre primed and undercoated by manufacturer.. The only way the will guarantee this for 6 years, the primer & undercoat is oil (solvent) based and the top coat water based dulux weathershield satinwood..

OK use synthetic brushes - mostly always do (purdy)

Now with the doors i and all other pro decorators do the cutting in bits first then and all the feats on a door then the flat parts to get the best Finnish with all the lines in the right place.

So i do this with the water based satin Finnish and i get near enough different colours where the lines meet. I made sure it wasn't my painting by doing the middle section at the same time as the upsection making sure paint was drying at the same time! but not where brush goes up and along it looks different!

I don't know the answer to this with this paint, But my answer to get a perfect job at the moment is to use NORMAL solvent based satinwood paint which i have NEVER had a problem with and finnish fine every time.

I will be calling the dulux rep but the score with them is its never there fault This has been a nightmare for me as i will have to drive 50miles and paint 6 doors again! The windows and frames where all the lines flow in same way look fine ! its when you have sections which go different ways.. IT is not a case of needing more coats either because i tested this by giving a few doors 4/5 coats on the middle section to try to get rid of the lines but to no avail!

On a side note i have been using dulux aquatech wood paint and find it is an amazing product! also dulux qd primer undercoat (great) diamond glaze (fantastic).

Its very hard explaining to clients why the finnish looks like this. Especially when it was only guaranteed that if they want a satin external finnish they need to use this paint.

OK my rant over but please people tell me where i'm going wrong am i using the wrong brush or what? i can take photos today of all the doors i have painted with standard solvent paint 1 - 5 years on still look perfect and this is on the coast. Now i paint 6 doors with this and they look bad.

Ideas

Your not doing anything wrong .. Water Based paints have great colour retention but that is no consolation to ts inherent lack of performance when applying it. Dulux has been tinkering with its oil based paints lately and they don't perform like they used to ,,the Satin Wood today doesn't flow out and even using Purdy its difficult to minimise brush marks .. I add Owatrol to it and it still doesn't correct it .. Dam VOC laws from Europe is the problem ..

I am starting to get angry with the whole industry ,, Permoglaze has gone, Crown i wouldn't use on a Dog Kennel, Farrow and Ball are towing the EU directive line on VOCs, I can't get any Sigma or Spectrum where I'm living ... The whole industry is falling apart .. I remember a time when the City and Guilds meant something ,,nowadays its chancers picking up a Brush and calling themselves Decorators .. That's my rant ! Mind you i had Akzo Noble plead with me to stop phoning them when they pulled Permoglaze from the Irish market ..