It may be fascinating but it is also a horrible situation to end up in, not only for the customer with a sib standard job, but for the builder too, I suspect he has outgoings the same as we all do and perhaps a family to provide for.
what are my rights after being a victim of Dot & Dab til
- Thread starter thisismyusername
- Start date
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I'm afraid I have very little sympathy for the builder here. He was alerted to the customer's concerns over his method and overrode them, ruined the job wasting expensive materials, and performed illegal and dangerous work on the electrical system. And since he thinks he deserves payment anyway it seems he'd do it all again on the next job.
(Naturally this is based on the only side of the story we've heard, but that is what i'm necessarily basing my opinion on.)
(Naturally this is based on the only side of the story we've heard, but that is what i'm necessarily basing my opinion on.)
Hi guys, he is due to come around soon. I will respond to other comments made in this thread at a later point, but for now, i have drafted this agreement. Please read over it and tell me if theres anything that you feel i have missed out or should include. Thank you.
------------------------
Agreement
Trade Name:
Proprietor Name:
Proprietor Address:
Proprietor Telephone Number:
Date: 24th February 2010
This agreement is between the above named trade and Mr xxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, whom instructed the above trader to carry out works on the first floor Bathroom of the property, namely tiling of the walls and floor, installing new lights and fitting in a new suite. This work has not been completed as Mr xxxx is not happy with the standard of the work carried out so far (electrics and tiling), as it does not conform to British Standards Code of Practice, as highlighted in article BS5385, namely, a substandard practice of tiling has been adopted, known as “dotting and dabbing”, which leaves the tiles vulnerable, compromises its integrity, leaves it hollow in the middle and is allot more likely to break/crack/fall off with damp, steam, moisture, pressure and if drilled into. Also, the border on the wall tiles has been tiled incorrectly, one wall follows one pattern and the opposite wall follows a another. Also for the electric portion of the job, Mr xxxx is not satisfied that the proprietor/the workman who installed the electrics is a qualified electrician, neither was a part P certificate issued and therefore has terminated the verbal contract immediately.
Hereon we propose one of the two of the following:
1) The trader above, for partial payment for the work he has completed, to be paid upon successful completion of the correctional work that he has botched up. This is giving him the opportunity to put right his work. This means that the trader shall remove the old tiles and replace them with new ones (note: not salvaged existing ones-due to the compromise of their integrity) and that he shall be responsible for all new materials that are needed to complete this. He will only be given permission to remove the old tiles once the new tiles have been purchased and are within the property, to prevent further damage and absconding due to hostility on his part. We also reserve the right to have an independent third party assess the completed work and collate a report and upon verification of good workmanship payment will be due. If the third party deems it to be substandard or to not meet the UK requirements or British Standards, then no payment shall be due and no more opportunities to put the work right will be given.
On successful completion, the amount agreed to be paid for work is: £
OR
2) Although rightfully the trader should be made to pay for correctional work or materials that will now be needed to rectify the work, as a gesture of good will, and in good faith, Mr xxxx-owner of the property, as a one off payment is willing to give the trader £ . This payment is not for any work that has been carried out, nor is it for services, labour, wages or any other constituents contained within the area of work that was previously agreed that would have been payable upon successful completion of the work. The statutory rights of Mr xxxxx stipulate:
Your statutory rights
With contracts for Work and Materials where the main focus is labour and skill, you are always protected by three statutory terms, even if you have nothing in writing, or the contract you signed does not specifically mention them. They are:
1. Reasonable care and skill
As you are buying the services of a trained professional, there is the assumption that the builder or tradesman will act with ‘reasonable care and skill’. If he does not, you can claim a breach of your statutory rights and be entitled to terminate the contract and either pay nothing further or seek to get your money back through the courts. Where substandard work has been carried out, you may well have incurred greater potential costs to have the work put right, so it is not enough simply to ask for your money back. In such circumstances, it may be more appropriate to pursue a claim for damages. Remember that where the cost of the work is over £100 and you are able to pay by credit card, you would be well advised to do so. This would make the credit card company equally liable where you were not able to recover your costs from the builder.
In accordance to the above statutory rights, Mr xxxxx is making the payment ONLY as a gesture of good will to eliminate the hostility, animosity and negativity of emotions that have arisen due to the disagreement and dissolution of the prior set agreement/contract. Acceptance of this payment confirms that the trader loses any further right to seek any further payment. It also means that he shall no longer seek or demand further payment, for any work done or otherwise and the matter ends here. He will not contact Mr xxxx or Mr xxxx’s family via any means and that Mr xxxx may from this point onwards instruct/employ anyone else to resume/complete/carry on with the incomplete job or to start it over again, whichever they prefer.
If both of these two proposals are rejected then Mr xxxxx reserves the right to withdraw his offers and under his statutory rights, not make any payments what so ever-until the matter is on trial and a judgment is made by a county court judge in a small claims court (which the trader is free to seek)
I hereby confirm that I have read the above and agree to its terms & conditions. I have opted to agree to:
Term 1 (ONE) of the agreement
(Circle as appropriate)
Term 2 (TWO) of the agreement
Trader: Witnessed by Homeowner: Mr xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
2nd Witness:
----------------------
------------------------
Agreement
Trade Name:
Proprietor Name:
Proprietor Address:
Proprietor Telephone Number:
Date: 24th February 2010
This agreement is between the above named trade and Mr xxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, whom instructed the above trader to carry out works on the first floor Bathroom of the property, namely tiling of the walls and floor, installing new lights and fitting in a new suite. This work has not been completed as Mr xxxx is not happy with the standard of the work carried out so far (electrics and tiling), as it does not conform to British Standards Code of Practice, as highlighted in article BS5385, namely, a substandard practice of tiling has been adopted, known as “dotting and dabbing”, which leaves the tiles vulnerable, compromises its integrity, leaves it hollow in the middle and is allot more likely to break/crack/fall off with damp, steam, moisture, pressure and if drilled into. Also, the border on the wall tiles has been tiled incorrectly, one wall follows one pattern and the opposite wall follows a another. Also for the electric portion of the job, Mr xxxx is not satisfied that the proprietor/the workman who installed the electrics is a qualified electrician, neither was a part P certificate issued and therefore has terminated the verbal contract immediately.
Hereon we propose one of the two of the following:
1) The trader above, for partial payment for the work he has completed, to be paid upon successful completion of the correctional work that he has botched up. This is giving him the opportunity to put right his work. This means that the trader shall remove the old tiles and replace them with new ones (note: not salvaged existing ones-due to the compromise of their integrity) and that he shall be responsible for all new materials that are needed to complete this. He will only be given permission to remove the old tiles once the new tiles have been purchased and are within the property, to prevent further damage and absconding due to hostility on his part. We also reserve the right to have an independent third party assess the completed work and collate a report and upon verification of good workmanship payment will be due. If the third party deems it to be substandard or to not meet the UK requirements or British Standards, then no payment shall be due and no more opportunities to put the work right will be given.
On successful completion, the amount agreed to be paid for work is: £
OR
2) Although rightfully the trader should be made to pay for correctional work or materials that will now be needed to rectify the work, as a gesture of good will, and in good faith, Mr xxxx-owner of the property, as a one off payment is willing to give the trader £ . This payment is not for any work that has been carried out, nor is it for services, labour, wages or any other constituents contained within the area of work that was previously agreed that would have been payable upon successful completion of the work. The statutory rights of Mr xxxxx stipulate:
Your statutory rights
With contracts for Work and Materials where the main focus is labour and skill, you are always protected by three statutory terms, even if you have nothing in writing, or the contract you signed does not specifically mention them. They are:
1. Reasonable care and skill
As you are buying the services of a trained professional, there is the assumption that the builder or tradesman will act with ‘reasonable care and skill’. If he does not, you can claim a breach of your statutory rights and be entitled to terminate the contract and either pay nothing further or seek to get your money back through the courts. Where substandard work has been carried out, you may well have incurred greater potential costs to have the work put right, so it is not enough simply to ask for your money back. In such circumstances, it may be more appropriate to pursue a claim for damages. Remember that where the cost of the work is over £100 and you are able to pay by credit card, you would be well advised to do so. This would make the credit card company equally liable where you were not able to recover your costs from the builder.
In accordance to the above statutory rights, Mr xxxxx is making the payment ONLY as a gesture of good will to eliminate the hostility, animosity and negativity of emotions that have arisen due to the disagreement and dissolution of the prior set agreement/contract. Acceptance of this payment confirms that the trader loses any further right to seek any further payment. It also means that he shall no longer seek or demand further payment, for any work done or otherwise and the matter ends here. He will not contact Mr xxxx or Mr xxxx’s family via any means and that Mr xxxx may from this point onwards instruct/employ anyone else to resume/complete/carry on with the incomplete job or to start it over again, whichever they prefer.
If both of these two proposals are rejected then Mr xxxxx reserves the right to withdraw his offers and under his statutory rights, not make any payments what so ever-until the matter is on trial and a judgment is made by a county court judge in a small claims court (which the trader is free to seek)
I hereby confirm that I have read the above and agree to its terms & conditions. I have opted to agree to:
Term 1 (ONE) of the agreement
(Circle as appropriate)
Term 2 (TWO) of the agreement
Trader: Witnessed by Homeowner: Mr xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
2nd Witness:
----------------------
how about posting some pictures up of said shoddy work?
the more im reading this thread i seem to be getting a gut feeling(and i hope im wrong
)that maybe just maybe you could be the customer from hell.
but if his work is of substandard quality then he does need taking to task over it,and as others have said how many before or after will he do to potential customers who really havnt a clue on what they are paying for.
i wouldve thought dabbing the tiles wouldve taken him more time rather then trowelling on the adhesive with the correct set trowel anyway.
as for the pattern being incorrect then as a tradesman i think he shouldve just held his hands up to the mistake,weve all done them.
the more im reading this thread i seem to be getting a gut feeling(and i hope im wrong
)that maybe just maybe you could be the customer from hell. but if his work is of substandard quality then he does need taking to task over it,and as others have said how many before or after will he do to potential customers who really havnt a clue on what they are paying for.
i wouldve thought dabbing the tiles wouldve taken him more time rather then trowelling on the adhesive with the correct set trowel anyway.
as for the pattern being incorrect then as a tradesman i think he shouldve just held his hands up to the mistake,weve all done them.
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.
as for the pattern being incorrect then as a tradesman i think he shouldve just held his hands up to the mistake,weve all done them.
only datum lines mate
As Gregers says, some pics would be really helpful.
Also i think i would change the bit where you word it " botch job"
if he reads that it could get his pressure up.
I would`nt be giving him any money BUT if it was me ( your builder that is) i would want to try and clean the tiles first before buying new ones.
Cleaning the tiles does not do damage to them in any way shape or form.
Also i think i would change the bit where you word it " botch job"
if he reads that it could get his pressure up.
I would`nt be giving him any money BUT if it was me ( your builder that is) i would want to try and clean the tiles first before buying new ones.
Cleaning the tiles does not do damage to them in any way shape or form.
.
as for the pattern being incorrect then as a tradesman i think he shouldve just held his hands up to the mistake,weve all done them.
only datum lines mate
SHHHHHHHHHH
If a customer presented me with that there would be two things to do, one being to pop it where the sun dont shine and jog on, the second being to consult a solicitor to read through the 'contract' before I signed anything.
Keen to see the outsome of this, thats if the guy doesn't break your arms, rendering you unable to type.
Keen to see the outsome of this, thats if the guy doesn't break your arms, rendering you unable to type.
The agreement is emotional & far too complicated; it contains too much jargon & is asking the builder to admit he ballsed it up. Whilst he may be fully aware of that, my guess is he’ll be very unlikely (even stupid) to sign such a document & 1john’s assessment of where he may put it could well be accurate. If your desire is to make him turn away from the job I can understand but if it all went to court, what you probably have there is likely to be viewed as an unfair & unenforceable contract which may strengthen his hand & may well have the opposite effect to that you desire.
don't know if it has been said here as only had a quick glance through.
How much were you paying him?
How much were you paying him?
if the builder has not done job which he should have done..he should not be paid...if he threatens for payment recovery through force or other means...police complain + criminal offence could me made against him..
but as OP has said post pics of his work here so that we can say how bad a job has been done or may be that you are a customerfromhell..nothing to hide mate if you are not at fault
but as OP has said post pics of his work here so that we can say how bad a job has been done or may be that you are a customerfromhell..nothing to hide mate if you are not at fault
S
snadge
wow, just read this and its brill... love a good rile... hehe
welcome to the forum sherlockholmes , you have made some great posts, i can forsee you being a very helpfull member
yeah I think we should see pictures of he tiling.
the fact that he is indirectly threatening your family members as well as (what sounds like) constantly hounding them, i would be more inclined to pull him on this too... the contract is with you and him, he should not be hassling any of your family members and saying things like "i will get my FULL MONEY if i FINISH THE JOB OR NOT" - as he supply's no address, knows you cant find him and from sounds of his work , he sounds like he is just a local labourer who's done a few jobs for builders and isnt actually trained in anything?
- a proper builder (as well as having tons of experience) would have paid for an electrician to come in and do the wiring, he would also conform to your requests of how your tiling should be laid and earthing the bath/taps etc..its up to him to pencil in extra costs for this work if he see's it as that.
for me personally its the fact that he is hassling all your family members that annoys the hell out of me and another reason you should give him nothing - this is his plan, if you pay £200 to cut your losses then he has won, as this is probably what he is trying to acheive - i mean anyone truly trying to rectify the problem would not state (in a threatening manner) to other family members "i will get my full money if i finish the job or not" , nor would he have walked out of the house when pulled about the quality of the work..!! - this is the guise of a cowboy looking to get as much out of you as he can, as he has worked for it also..
I would ask around and see if anyone knows him and (and where he lives) , I would also get a dummy (or real) camera put up on wall of property or on bedroom window in case he does indeed start thinking about paying some young hoodies to "pop a cap in your .....window"
you have been given tons of great advice by all the other guys... this forum is great and has been an excellent source of help for me also..
keep us informed and post up some pics...
good luck
welcome to the forum sherlockholmes , you have made some great posts, i can forsee you being a very helpfull member
yeah I think we should see pictures of he tiling.
the fact that he is indirectly threatening your family members as well as (what sounds like) constantly hounding them, i would be more inclined to pull him on this too... the contract is with you and him, he should not be hassling any of your family members and saying things like "i will get my FULL MONEY if i FINISH THE JOB OR NOT" - as he supply's no address, knows you cant find him and from sounds of his work , he sounds like he is just a local labourer who's done a few jobs for builders and isnt actually trained in anything?
- a proper builder (as well as having tons of experience) would have paid for an electrician to come in and do the wiring, he would also conform to your requests of how your tiling should be laid and earthing the bath/taps etc..its up to him to pencil in extra costs for this work if he see's it as that.
for me personally its the fact that he is hassling all your family members that annoys the hell out of me and another reason you should give him nothing - this is his plan, if you pay £200 to cut your losses then he has won, as this is probably what he is trying to acheive - i mean anyone truly trying to rectify the problem would not state (in a threatening manner) to other family members "i will get my full money if i finish the job or not" , nor would he have walked out of the house when pulled about the quality of the work..!! - this is the guise of a cowboy looking to get as much out of you as he can, as he has worked for it also..
I would ask around and see if anyone knows him and (and where he lives) , I would also get a dummy (or real) camera put up on wall of property or on bedroom window in case he does indeed start thinking about paying some young hoodies to "pop a cap in your .....window"
you have been given tons of great advice by all the other guys... this forum is great and has been an excellent source of help for me also..
keep us informed and post up some pics...
good luck
Interesting post. One thing that would worry me is that you don't have an address for him and got his number off a leaflet. I am assuming that number is for a mobile and that just screams ***** to me. Wouldn't want to mess with them. Any sign writing on his van?
Good luck.
Good luck.
This may be a little late, you said he was coming round shortly and that was yesterday. How did it go?
With the agreement, I'd have written it as a letter rather than a new contract and been a little more succinct - the first paragraph covers most of what needs saying: the works undertaken, failure to meet BSxxx on the tiling and the major mistake with the border, notifiable electrical works undertaken by an unqualified person which appear to be unsafe, together constituting a violation of your statutory right to reasonable care and skill by a tradesman, and therefore voiding the contract. Therefore no monies will be paid and legal advice may be sought regarding the recovery of costs for rectifying the works. The focus is on impersonal observations, rather than personal accusations.
To cover yourself against his potential comeback that he wasn't allowed to rectify, I'd have a brief paragraph stating that you are unwilling for him to attempt to rectify the work because a) you are not satisfied he is capable of working to an acceptable standard with tiling and b) it is not legally possible for him to rectify the electrical installation. b is the headshot, he doesn't have a leg to stand on there. He could argue that he can do better with the tiling whether true or not, but he can't argue that he's a registered, qualified electrician if he isn't.
Then if you really wanted to give him some money to make him go away, I'd do that verbally seperate from the letter - pointing out he can take it or leave it, and if he wants to leave it and pursue payment you'll have to engage a lawyer and a third party to assess the work, and notify building control about the electrical work. If he does take it then all that's needed is a simple receipt stating the amount taken as full and final payment for all works undertaken.
With the agreement, I'd have written it as a letter rather than a new contract and been a little more succinct - the first paragraph covers most of what needs saying: the works undertaken, failure to meet BSxxx on the tiling and the major mistake with the border, notifiable electrical works undertaken by an unqualified person which appear to be unsafe, together constituting a violation of your statutory right to reasonable care and skill by a tradesman, and therefore voiding the contract. Therefore no monies will be paid and legal advice may be sought regarding the recovery of costs for rectifying the works. The focus is on impersonal observations, rather than personal accusations.
To cover yourself against his potential comeback that he wasn't allowed to rectify, I'd have a brief paragraph stating that you are unwilling for him to attempt to rectify the work because a) you are not satisfied he is capable of working to an acceptable standard with tiling and b) it is not legally possible for him to rectify the electrical installation. b is the headshot, he doesn't have a leg to stand on there. He could argue that he can do better with the tiling whether true or not, but he can't argue that he's a registered, qualified electrician if he isn't.
Then if you really wanted to give him some money to make him go away, I'd do that verbally seperate from the letter - pointing out he can take it or leave it, and if he wants to leave it and pursue payment you'll have to engage a lawyer and a third party to assess the work, and notify building control about the electrical work. If he does take it then all that's needed is a simple receipt stating the amount taken as full and final payment for all works undertaken.
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