What is electrical equipment and what is an electrical installation?

[ericmark]

“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter;
“electrical equipment” means those electrical fixtures, fittings and appliances that are not electrical installations;

How can it be a fixture and not a fixture at the same time?

 

[SUNRAY]

How can it be a fixture and not a fixture at the same time?

And hence the reason we have had so many discussions about the boundaries for EICR and PAT or whatever the current fashionable terms are.

 

[securespark]

We don't have endless discussions about such things, do we?

 

[ebee]

How can it be a fixture and not a fixture at the same time?

Who says it can be ?

Sctually I would prefer to discuss a Ring Final Circuit or a Radial Final Circuit being a "Final Circuit" but being the source of another radial (or ring) final or non-final ciruit because of the placement of a circuit protective divice?

Example a Circuit from a consumer unit containing points of utilisation such as sockets but also connected to FCUs with a 3 to 13A fuse for say a lighting circuits or small power circuits

 

[JohnW2]

How can it be a fixture and not a fixture at the same time?

Is it perhaps so hot that you can't apply your thought processes to more pressing questions ?

 

[SUNRAY]

We don't have endless discussions about such things, do we?

Now you come to mention it; no I don't recall it being mentioned very much



























Well certainly not more than hundreds of posts

 

[JohnW2]

Now you come to mention it; no I don't recall it being mentioned very much .... Well certainly not more than hundreds of posts

I think the 'discussions' most often relate to things 'plugged into' an electrical installation (particularly if 'plugged in' via an 'extension cable'), in which case many people would say that they are not (or 'should not be') within the scope of an EICR.

 

[securespark]

Now you come to mention it; no I don't recall it being mentioned very much



























Well certainly not more than hundreds of posts

 

[ebee]

I think the 'discussions' most often relate to things 'plugged into' an electrical installation (particularly if 'plugged in' via an 'extension cable'), in which case many people would say that they are not (or 'should not be') within the scope of an EICR.

Hmm, thats a good one.
If we decide that, in some installtions, an extension ( or something plugged in using a plug and socket type approach) is it or is it not a part of that installation itself?
My answer is - yes it could be, it depends upon the application/intended use.

I am sure some of us if not all of us would view an extension reel kept under the stairs for use now and again once or twice a year to do a bit of power washing or hedge trimming etc as not part of the installtion itself.

On the other hand though - a plug and socket type system, example a means of disconnecting/reconnecting 12 downlights in a room one at a time or in groups of 2 or 3 at a time to aid testing, adding/ammending/repairing and fault finding using those blue or green connectors hidden in the ceiling , this would surely make them all part of the installation itself?

Where do we draw the line???

 

[JohnW2]

I am sure some of us if not all of us would view an exte.nsion reel kept under the stairs for use now and again once or twice a year to do a bit of power washing or hedge trimming etc as not part of the installtion itself.

Agreed

On the other hand though - a plug and socket type system, example a means of disconnecting/reconnecting 12 downlights in a room one at a time or in groups of 2 or 3 at a time to aid testing, adding/ammending/repairing and fault finding using those blue or green connectors hidden in the ceiling , this would surely make them all part of the installation itself?

Sensible though that view (with which many/most of us would probably agree), I don't think there is any "surely" about any of this - since, as you go on to say, it all comes down to the question of ...

Where do we draw the line???

As we've often discussed in the past, it can't (sensibly) be simply the case that anything 'plugged in' is NOT 'part of the installation', since a 'big socket+plug' immediately downstream of the meter would then take the entire 'installation' (as defined by common sense) out of the scope of both BS7671 and EICRs

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would prefer to discuss a Ring Final Circuit

Yes, some odd names have been invented, so we can have an overload device which does not create a circuit as can't really have a final final circuit.

it can't (sensibly) be simply the case that anything 'plugged in' is NOT 'part of the installation

I see your point, portacabins, caravans, and narrow boats all can be plugged in, main point is TN-C-S is not allowed, but within the caravan or boat things are installed.

As to if a plug in solar panel is installed, really not sure, whole point is it can be moved home to home, so common sense says it is not installed, but to unplug and plug back in every 27 days so a G98 is not required, seems to be stretching it a bit.

As to plastic, they mean it can bend, so how do we get hard plastic? And a boiler with change the state of something from liquid to gas, so how do we end up with a central heating boiler, furnace would seem a better name.

OK we know what PAT testing is, and would not call it portable appliance testing testing. It is only when the word is used in a law or regulation that we have a problem.

So 30 MPH in relation to the earths surface is not required, we take that as read, fact I am doing around 330 MPH when standing still, is ignored.

But the "The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall not be used for any, other purpose." full stop at the end, is often ignored.

 

[JohnW2]

As to if a plug in solar panel is installed, really not sure, whole point is it can be moved home to home, so common sense says it is not installed ....

Mayber - but who said that 'common sense' is likely to come into this?


In any event, it's not straightforward - my 'boiler' (indeed, the entire heating system) is fed via a BS1363 plug/socket (to facilitate changeover to a genny supply), but I don't think many people would suggest that meant that it was not 'installed', would they?

As to plastic, they mean it can bend, so how do we get hard plastic?

Because there are 'softer' and 'harder' plastics. Many 'hard' plastics are quite brittle, and hence will snap, rather than bend, if one tries to bend them without heating, Virtually any plastic will bend to some extent - in scientific/engineering terms, "plastic" (as opposed to "elastic" relates to what happens after one bends it - whether it 'stays bent' (plastic) or returns to its original state (elastic), albeit many materials exhibit a combinaion of both, depending uopon the degree of stress.

And a boiler with change the state of something from liquid to gas, so how do we end up with a central heating boiler, furnace would seem a better name.

The Americans get some aspects of 'English' (quite a few, in my opinion) 'right'

But the "The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall not be used for any, other purpose." full stop at the end, is often ignored.

I've never really understood your feelings about the full stop. The statement your cite once applied only to single-core cables but, more recently, also applies to G/Y-insulated conductors in multi-core cables.

 

[ericmark]

In any event, it's not straightforward - my 'boiler' (indeed, the entire heating system) is fed via a BS1363 plug/socket (to facilitate changeover to a genny supply), but I don't think many people would suggest that meant that it was not 'installed', would they?

That is very true, I remember in collage them talking about a picture, very valuable, where the frame was nailed to the wall, so it could not be removed on selling the property, it is a long time ago, I would say be it a nail or screw, if it needs a tool to remove it, then it's a fixture.

But that is a grey area, I have screwed things down as a temporary measure.

 

[SUNRAY]

That is very true, I remember in collage them talking about a picture, very valuable, where the frame was nailed to the wall, so it could not be removed on selling the property, it is a long time ago, I would say be it a nail or screw, if it needs a tool to remove it, then it's a fixture.

But that is a grey area, I have screwed things down as a temporary measure.

I've always understood that anything wired in without a plug/socket is part of the installation, such as a cooker.

 

[ericmark]

I've always understood that anything wired in without a plug/socket is part of the installation, such as a cooker.

Yes, but is the reverse also true, I think not, which is what @JohnW2 has said.