Now define what "changing the configuration of a circuit" means!
When is a new circuit not a new circuit?
- Thread starter oldbutnotdead
- Start date
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Some may take that view, but I very much doubt that it would really be within the 'spirit of the intention'! I would suspect that the real intent was for work to be notifiable if it required new 'design'. Adding sockets/lights/spurs/branches etc. usually would not require that, but if the OPD, cable CSA or design current were changed, 'design' would be necessary - hence I suspect that's what they really had in their minds.
In common sense terms, it would be ridiculous to say that a circuit was not a 'new circuit' because it was re-using just one or two components (OPD, socket, switch, a bit of cable or whatever) that was part of a pre-existing circuit.
Kind Regards, John
I can give you some examples: changing a ring final into 2 radials; or combining two radials into a ring.Now define what "changing the configuration of a circuit" means!
How about taking a 20A radial which feeds one double socket and extending it in a straight line (electrically speaking) to half a dozen more - New configuration?
How about splitting off in two or three different directions from the original socket to new sockets - New configuration?
How about adding a fused spur to an existing 20A radial or 30A ring to feed a couple of wall lights - New configuration?
How about disconnecting the cable feeding a 20A radial from its MCB and combining it with the 20A MCB which already feeds another radial, making them a single circuit - New configuration?
Agreed!
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. If, for example, you were about to add 500 or 600W of lighting to a circuit, wouldn't you do some sort of "design" work, if only in your head, to determine whether or not you thought the existing circuit could cope with that extra load? Or if you were about to add a couple of wall-mounted panel convector heaters to an existing 20A radial circuit feeding sockets, wouldn't you do similar calculations, at least roughly? But I don't think either one of us would in any way believe that the regulations intended those to be classed as "new circuits."
Indeed. But there are numerous scenarios we could (and have) hashed out with regard to notifiable vs. non-notifiable work, both with the new "simplified" rules and especially with the earlier more extensive rules, which would go against common sense, at least as we might see it.
So we're back to what does "a new circuit" really mean? Never mind, I have no doubt a certain person will be along shortly to explain how perfectly clear it is if only we would read what's written, and how our mental capacities are obviously sub-normal if we can't see it......
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The problem there is that the people who wrote the regulations think that installing a CU is notifiable.
So if it ever came to a situation where it really did matter if it was or was not, and the law-writers stated their intention, then the court might send them away with a flea in their ear for doing such a p-poor job of writing, or it might side with them.
Also, if you fit a new consumer unit in place of something which was not a consumer unit then the final circuits are new.
Why are they? What makes them new circuits and not just existing circuits transferred to some new type of distribution board?
Apologies - I worded the bit about design current very badly. What I meant, and should have written, was something like "if the design current had risen to a figure which would not have been acceptable for the original circuit" (again implying that a change in OPD and/or cable would be required).
Kind Regards, John
Or
"When is an old circuit not an old circuit?"
Thanks - That would make more sense, although obviously the wording in the regulations could have suggested such if that was the intent.
Well, yes, but it's obviously 'the law' (the Building Regs) which specify that installation of a 'new circuit' is notifiable, and that legislation is total silent in respect to any criteria for deciding whether or not something is a 'new circuit'. It obviously had an 'intended meaning' (maybe a meaning that they regarded as "obvious"!) in the mind(s) of the person(s) who wrote it, but .....!!
Kind Regards, John
There is surely 'altered' and 'altered'? If I removed all of an existing circuit and replaced it with one which had different rating of OPD (in the same CU 'slot' that had been occupied by the OPD of the previous circuit), different sized cable, different cable routing, configuration and length, and different accessories, would you seriously suggest that all one had done was 'altered an existing circuit'? We don't know exactly what was the 'intent' as to where the line should be drawn, but what I've just described surely goes over that line?
In the absence of any proper definitions, I think all we can do is to attempt to apply some common sense.
Kind Regards, John
But what if you did it in stages?
Scenario: You have a 20A radial, wired in 2.5 sq. mm cable in a straight line from MCB to three double sockets in sequence in one room. This weekend you fit three new sockets in another room, wire them together with 4 sq. mm cable and run that cable back to the existing 20A MCB to get power in there temporarily. That's just a change to an existing circuit by adding three sockets and associated cabling, surely?
Next weekend, you fit three more double sockets in the room as you're fitting it out for whatever purpose you have in mind, wire them together with 4 sq. mm cable, and hook it into one of the sockets you fitted previously. You still have those old sockets on 2.5 sq. mm cable elsewhere which you want to use for now, so you leave the 20A MCB in place. Just another alteration to the existing circuit, yes?
Then the following weekend, or a couple of weeks or a month later if you like, you have the new room finished to your liking and move on to the room containing the original three sockets which were on that circuit, and which are now redundant because you've made other changes in there. So you now disconnect the original 2.5 sq. mm cable from the 20 MCB, and fit a 32A MCB in its place, now feeding only the 4 sq. mm cable you fitted a few weeks previously. Has the act of merely removing the old 2.5 cable and replacing the MCB created a new circuit at that moment?
We can try, but the problem is that common sense and Whitehall bureaucrats writing these ambiguous regulations don't really go well together!
You would then have created/contrived an even "greyer" situation, about which opinions would obviously vary!
Kind Regards, John
Not that you can trust a single word they tell you since they have a vested interest, but have any local authorities yet expressed any specific opinion as to what they consider a "new circuit" to be? (Or a "consumer unit" for that matter.)
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