Whirlpool Oven and Hob on 13amp sockets

[ianp68]

Ian

Where did you get that from?

I don't know any manufacturer that makes a BS1363 double socket that will carry 26A.

Let me know who does and I'll buy some!


Dingbat

Bingo! How did we manage that?

We should enter the Greek Olympics with synchronised forum posting....

From our NICEIC area engineer, while talking about the number of spurred circuits taken from a ring main.

Which manufacturers have stated that their dual 13A socket oultlet can't actually provide the current to feed dual 13A plugs ?

 

[ninebob]

A post by FWL_Engineer in a previous thread:

OK, I have been hunting for clarification on this as I do consider it extremely imnportant as a matter of safety.

Here is a quote from the Technical Section of the latest MK catalogue which arrived in the post Yesterday.

All MK socket-outlets are manufactured to comply with BS1363 part 2: 1995 and are rated at 13A per unit. Double socket-outlets have been manufactured and tested to exceed this rating by margin that allows electrical safety and reduces the risk of heat and mechanical damage to components due to overloading. It should be noted that BS1363 part 2: 1995 does not allow double sockets to operate at twice the permissable maximum loading and it should be remembered that double socket-outlets are not manufactured to be able to withstand a 26A load for sustained periods of time.

Research by ourselves and third party organisations has shown that all MK double sockets can safely withstand a continuous load of 19.5A for an indefinite period. Increasing the load slightly will begin to cause heat and mechanical stresses on the components in a relatively short period. Testing showed that a load of 22.3A was sufficient to cause heat stress that would cause a browning of the faceplates and sufficient heat to cause insulation damage to cable cores. A load of 24A for 43 hours was sufficient to cause significant heat damage to the material in which the socket-oulet was situated and within 75 hours sufficient to cause significant damage that would lead to the very real potential of fire.

MK recommend that users of their sockets consult professional design Engineers when designing installations to avoid the possibility of heat and mechanical stress to components and installations caused by overloading of MK socket-outlets.

I think MK's words speak better on this subject than anything I can say.

 

[dingbat]

[From our NICEIC area engineer, while talking about the number of spurred circuits taken from a ring main.

Which manufacturers have stated that their dual 13A socket outlet can't actually provide the current to feed dual 13A plugs ?

It's not a question of providing the current, but of being able to safely conduct it. I believe MK was one. As far as I'm concerned, if it's good enough for MK it's good enough for me. (I seem to remember a continual test of 20A being mentioned.)

As far as spurs go, a single is the same as a twin, as a triple... because they are all rated at a max of 13A.

Much as I love the NICEIC, IEE, ECA et al, my experience of the majority of 'experts' is that they tend to acquire a combined body of knowledge and folklore without enquiry and then pass it on as unassailable fact. We should all make it our business to question what we are told until we are completely satisfied that it's correct. (Until the next theory comes along!)

 

[dingbat]

Cheers ninebob... that's the stuff I was on about!

 

[plugwash]

haveing said that i heared of someone runing a 9kw shower off one

apparenlty the guy who told me about this was called out my someone saying the plug on my shower is getting warm

the guy showed me the plug and there was no visiable damage to it and he didn't mention any to the socket

the cable into the plug was stranded and thick probablly 4mm T&E but im not sure

the fuse was replaced by a thin wire wrapped roudn one side of the fuseholder and sitting in the other

 

[ninebob]

haveing said that i heared of someone runing a 9kw shower off one

Hmm... Darwin award, anyone?

I expect the reason it did no damage is because a shower is only on for a few minutes at a time.

It's still beyond stupid though.

 

[ianp68]

A post by FWL_Engineer in a previous thread:

OK, I have been hunting for clarification on this as I do consider it extremely imnportant as a matter of safety.

Here is a quote from the Technical Section of the latest MK catalogue which arrived in the post Yesterday.

Quote snipped



I think MK's words speak better on this subject than anything I can say.

I find this quite astonishing, how a respected manufacturer like MK can allow a product incapable of it's intended use to go on sale knowing it can be unsafe. If it's only rated to 13A total it should be designed in a way to prevent any load in excess of this being used. ie. FIT A FUSE !! They certainly do with 3 gang sockets. If qualified electricians are unaware of the limitations, what chance have the general public got.

I'll bring this to the attention of our NICEIC area manager next week and see what his views are.

Thanks for the replies and the correction.

 

[securespark]

This is what we're all saying!

BSi requires an outlet to conduct a max of 13A no more. How is Joe Public meant to know this?

I come across countless outlets used eg for dryer & wm together or similar and they are stuffed. Cannot cope.

Perhaps you should skip the NIC and go to the organisation that created the standard for the BS1363 socket outlet.....

 

[woodie]

GOSH!

I just wired my gear as follows
separate 30a (32amp fuseway) radial circuit from consumer unit in 4mm2 cable supplying a double socket into which goes the oven (13a plug) and hob (13a plug).

Good job the hob is gas! I did work all this out carefully first and run it by a leeky but the socket overload potential with an electric hob (I almost had one) was something I would have missed entirely.

Blazing sockets coming to a diy kitchen near you soon! phew!

 

[ninebob]

I did work all this out carefully first and run it by a leeky

A leeky? That'll never hold water.....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I find this quite astonishing, how a respected manufacturer like MK can allow a product incapable of it's intended use to go on sale knowing it can be unsafe. If it's only rated to 13A total it should be designed in a way to prevent any load in excess of this being used. ie. FIT A FUSE !! They certainly do with 3 gang sockets. If qualified electricians are unaware of the limitations, what chance have the general public got.

I'll bring this to the attention of our NICEIC area manager next week and see what his views are.

Thanks for the replies and the correction.

Welcome to the club of outraged-at-the-BSI. What's even more disturbing is that qualified electricians don't know it - why is it not taught as a design fundamental on 2360?

 

[securespark]

I found out on my course, but only because I'm a nosy b*st*rd....

 

[dingbat]

I found out on my course, but only because I'm a nosy b*st*rd....

Me too, but I only found out about it after the barney on here a few months ago!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I was just about to post a reply about Part P and qualified electricians meaning safer installations because they know things that the unwashed public don't, but I decided I'd be preaching to the converted...

 

[dingbat]

I was just about to post a reply about Part P and qualified electricians meaning safer installations because they know things that the unwashed public don't, but I decided I'd be preaching to the converted...

It's an important point you raise. There are a number of pro sparks on this and other forums, but not very many. At least we're taking an interest though, and being concerned to get it right/safe, frequently challenging each other and getting into reg-quoting duels, learning as we go. The NICEIC fellas should work to the continually updated technical manual and be up to date with any changes but some of the work I've seen recently suggests some are behind with their reading.

But what about the rest? I'd guess that the majority of sparks doing domestic work are under-qualified, probably well out of date, making no effort to keep up and merrily going about their business as they have always done, "Sixteenth Edition? Blimey, don't time fly?". It would certainly not surprise me if many of them have never heard of Part P. With a mere six months to go I have yet to see anything outside the specialist press or these forums to prepare the great unwashed for the changes. I was out of the country when CORGI got started and promoted - anybody remember what sort of publicity it got?