Who follows Part P anyway?

[martinxxxxxx]

Dear all

Wanted to share something with you, I am just waiting for my assessment as a competent person.

So I have been asking around my friends about electrical work that they have had done and none of them have heard of part p and none of them were given certs at all all for recent work.

All of the work looks neat. But it seems that there is a whole economy of electrical work still going on that is falling through the net of part p

Makes me wonder why I am spending so much time and effort in complying with the letter of the law.

I have already been told that the Part P C&G Building Regulations City &
> Guilds 2393-10" is not compulsory to becoming a competent person, nor is test and inspection Inspection & Testing City & Guilds 2392-10, which really surprises me. As those two courses have just cost me the best part of a grand.

So far I have spent about £2k to come up to date and it is a bit gutting to see that others are not bothering. I am sure you will tell me that the householders will come unstuck eventually, but will they really?

Ponder and answer

Martin

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So I have been asking around my friends about electrical work that they have had done and none of them have heard of part p and none of them were given certs at all all for recent work.

'twas ever thus.

Makes me wonder why I am spending so much time and effort in complying with the letter of the law.

Because you are a responsible professional who takes pride in his work, has respect for himself and his customers, and does not believe that deliberate lawbreaking is compatible with the status of professional.

I have already been told that the Part P C&G Building Regulations City &
> Guilds 2393-10" is not compulsory to becoming a competent person, nor is test and inspection Inspection & Testing City & Guilds 2392-10, which really surprises me. As those two courses have just cost me the best part of a grand.

No, they are not compulsory, because Competent Person does not mean competent person, as we see all to often here with so-called "qualified" electricians having to ask basic questions on a DIY site.

But they should be compulsory, as should a period of OTJ practical training.

So far I have spent about £2k to come up to date and it is a bit gutting to see that others are not bothering.

Do you also drive dangerously, shoplift, fare-dodge and fiddle your taxes?

I am sure you will tell me that the householders will come unstuck eventually, but will they really?

Unstuck because of not using a registered electrician? Probably not, or not much.

Unstuck because of not using a properly qualified electrician? Yes, all the time - take for instance sajeel's hapless customers.

 

[securespark]

with so-called "qualified" electricians having to ask basic questions on a DIY site.

I can't say I've seen that.






Psst, Ban, what size cable do you use for earthing?

 

[1john]

part p could have been a wonderful thing, except it was rushed in, no real forethaught i dont think and then they have lowered standards for people to become registered with governing bodies. complete joke alowing cowboys to get jobs that required 'proper' cortificates previously to undercut others. Market has been flooded with incompetent inexperienced idiots with no idea of how to carry out work to a good standard, people who read and beleive 'become an electrician in 2 days and earn £100,000 a year'

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi Martin,

Welcome to the Fiasco that is UK wiring regs and laws.

Ita appalling to see such outrageous incompetence by people who tell us they are electricians!
For a living, breathing (at the moment) example of danger-in-progress, you should read the link to sajoker's thread above (linked in BAS's post), stunning

For the bonafide sparks amongst us, what you suggest is all too well known and little seems to be getting done about it.

All i can suggest (and im starting to disbelieve it myself) is that you continue to do the job correctly and therefore safely and someday Darwinian selection will filter out the wire-twisting jokers

 

[Aragorn84]

I was under the impression that to be able to self certify for Part P you needed to be a member of one of the recognised bodies, such as NICEIC/Elecsa/etc?

If such cowboys as mentioned above are legally self-certifying work thru their registered body, even though they're not actually competent, surely the problem lies with the body having allowed that person to become registered in the first instance?

Does that mean i can trot off to college, nail a few certificates, then sign up to NICEIC (or whoever) and self cert my own work with no practical experience whatsoever?

 

[bernardgreen]

To be able to self certify in some area ( depends on the local authority ) all one has to do is before starting any work meet and talk to the building control officers. If you and they can then convince the local authority that the installation will be properly designed and the work will be done to a safe standard you may be allowed to self certify the work you install on a DIY basis.

Then to actually certify the work to the acceptance of the local authority one has to show that the work was done to a satisfactory standard and sign a formal document to that effect.

Part P is like all other parts of the building regulations. If you can show good cause why it is necessary to depart from accepted methods and that departure is acceptable to the building control officers and the resulting structure or service will be safe then such departures are permitted.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Psst, Ban, what size cable do you use for earthing?

• □ 1mm²
• □ 1.5mm²
• □ 2.5mm²
• □ 4mm²
• □ 6mm²
• □ 10mm²
• □ 16mm²
• □ 25mm²
• □ A couple of feet long
• □ It depends
• □ Whatever I can find
• □ All of the above
• □ None of the above
• □ Why do you want/need to know?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If such cowboys as mentioned above are legally self-certifying work thru their registered body, even though they're not actually competent, surely the problem lies with the body having allowed that person to become registered in the first instance?

Yup.

Q: who was it who invented the Domestic Installer NVQ?
A: Rearrange these letters into a well-known sequence:

C I C N E I

Does that mean i can trot off to college, nail a few certificates, then sign up to NICEIC (or whoever) and self cert my own work with no practical experience whatsoever?

Yup.

Oh - and don't spend too long nailing those certificates - a week or two should be ample.

 

[Paul_C]

and does not believe that deliberate lawbreaking is compatible with the status of professional.

Even when the law says you must pay £200+ to the local council for a £50 job, so that somebody who is not an electrical professional can just rubber-stamp a piece of paper or at best wander around and "inspect" the work without really having a clue?

 

[Aragorn84]

Yup.

Oh - and don't spend too long nailing those certificates - a week or two should be ample.

Ideal, College next week then!

 

[martinxxxxxx]

That is exactly what my mate told me the council did when he paid them £285 plus vat to test his rewire.

They have a little poke around ask a few questions, "any thoughts on the weekend weather etc, wait for some time to pass. then go.

He has been on a Domestic Installer Scheme Qualification (DISQ) with NICEIC but did not join Competent person scheme.

He told me on the phone today that that was only the 2nd time he had registered his work and it only because it was a rewire.

He wasn't on site on site when they came to his other job. So they could not have seen his certificate.

Normally he just says he is replacing what is there already. I questioned him about testing, checking loadings, wiring through insulation and wire ratings etc. He said it was - now wait for this ........



down to common sense


He has a nice MT1552 Megger (out of calibration, but never out of its box) and a 16 ed on-site guide. I don't think his installation are dangerous because he probably has got a good idea of when to check with the regs and he would not do anything exotic like sanjeep. But he will never know until something goes wrong and he has not got anything to back up his work.

 

[Spark123]

I think BAS referred to this above, some of the LABCs are now allowing qualified electricians to register with them, the electrician can sign work off to BS7671 and then the LABC will sign it off to the building regs for a reduced fee.
The form I got for enrolment requires me to have a calibrated tester (which isn't a problem as my MFT is calibrated for industrial/commercial work).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

and does not believe that deliberate lawbreaking is compatible with the status of professional.

Even when the law says you must pay £200+ to the local council for a £50 job, so that somebody who is not an electrical professional can just rubber-stamp a piece of paper or at best wander around and "inspect" the work without really having a clue?

I'm afraid so, if the professional decides that it's more cost effective to pay £200+ per job instead of £3-400 per year (from memory).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

He has been on a Domestic Installer Scheme Qualification (DISQ) with NICEIC but did not join Competent person scheme.

If he's working as an electrician then he is either breaking the law or cannot possibly be making any money.

He told me on the phone today that that was only the 2nd time he had registered his work and it only because it was a rewire.

Rewires are not the only jobs that need notifying.

Normally he just says he is replacing what is there already.

That does not make jobs non-notifiable.

I questioned him about testing, checking loadings, wiring through insulation and wire ratings etc. He said it was - now wait for this ........



down to common sense

I'm afraid your mate is an incompetent cowboy and a lawbreaker, who is ripping off his customers and possibly storing up trouble for them in years to come.

That he can be doing these things is utterly shameful.

I don't think his installation are dangerous because he probably has got a good idea of when to check with the regs and he would not do anything exotic like sanjeep.

Why not?

Because he knows better?

Because he gives a s**t about anything he does?

Don't make me laugh.