Why do customers think they are entitled to credit?

[Aquaheat]

As the title says, why do customers think that they are entitled to credit facilities for anything that is plumbing or heating related?

I always charge for materials upfront before I even order them whether its for £50 or £5000.

Why is it believed that I should finance other peoples renovations and then hope to get paid at the end of it then having no legal right to remove what I have supplied and paid for?

Where else in todays society do you get offered a credit facility for things that you need without first being credit checked and having to sign a contract that allows all your wordly possessions to be removed to repay your debt?

Thoughts?

Jon

 

[ajsdoc]

I agree regarding credit. People who do work for you should be paid quickly on completion. As for paying for materials upfront, this would possibly make me think things are a bit Mickey mouse though. You'd hope any business could stand materials on reasonable jobs, receiving full payment on completion - I had assumed reasonable tradesmen would have credit terms with their suppliers.
The garage doesn't charge me for parts first.....

 

[sooey]

The garage doesn't charge me for parts first.....
But they've got hold of your van.

 

[Aquaheat]

You'd hope any business could stand materials on reasonable jobs, receiving full payment on completion - I had assumed reasonable tradesmen would have credit terms with their suppliers.

You are right I do but to get those credit terms I have to be credit checked and sign a contract to agree to their terms. It isn't just given out on an ad hoc basis. If a customer then fails to pay do you think my merchant is willing to extend my credit terms until they do or will I still have to pay my account and continue to chase the customer while being out of pocket? My merchant accounts are for my benefit not that of a customer.

A garage is different. They hold your vehicle until payment is made. If you don't have cleared payments when the job is complete do you think they will let you drive the vehicle away on a promise of payment?

Jon

 

[ajsdoc]

Good point!
But if supply and fit (plumbers with good reason don't want people supplying their own stuff) then for reasonable amounts think payment should be at completion.
Couple of jobs of about 5k recently ( boiler and central heating upgrade, new flooring and joinery with) neither asked for up front cash.
Any contract has a degree of trust, both ways.
Think if significant costs, extensions and the like, then clearly interval payments appropriate.
It's being called credit, which I think it's incorrect in this instance. Why pay for a new shower until the new shower is in and working?!

 

[ajsdoc]

The argument is that your business is the labour, not the supply and fitting of a service of some sort. I accept many people may want to take someone on on that basis, but for me I contract for a new central heating system not for the labour in installing it, if you see my semantic point.

 

[muggles]

I always give credit on every job - no deposit and payment due within 14 days of completion are my terms. Big jobs and long-running jobs get stage payment invoices, but I find customers have more confidence in you if you don't ask for money up front, as there's no opportunity for you to take their money and run. 95% of customers pay on time, of the 5% that don't most of them have just forgotten about it and pay as soon as they're reminded. Works for me

 

[Aquaheat]

Why pay for a new shower until the new shower is in and working?!

Because the shower is your property not mine. You want it and I don't. I'll happily put £3k of labour to a job until a customer is happy as that isn't risking my pockets or my merchant accounts.

Would you walk out of Tesco with £100 worth of shopping on the promise that you will pay them when you have consumed it all and it is to your satisfaction?

as there's no opportunity for you to take their money and run.

and this is half my point. Why would they assume that anyway? Is the initial thought that we are all theives? Is it because we wear work clothes and drive a van? Many people quite happily gave their money to suits and flash buildings without question when they put their money into Northern Rock. How did that turn out for them?

Jon

 

[DavidSWP]

As the title says, why do customers think that they are entitled to credit facilities for anything that is plumbing or heating related?

I always charge for materials upfront before I even order them whether its for £50 or £5000.

Why is it believed that I should finance other peoples renovations and then hope to get paid at the end of it then having no legal right to remove what I have supplied and paid for?

Where else in todays society do you get offered a credit facility for things that you need without first being credit checked and having to sign a contract that allows all your wordly possessions to be removed to repay your debt?

Thoughts?

Jon

And you have customers with this attitude? Your job is to select materials, or if customer specifies to agree or reject them. Payment is on job completion when the system is proved to be worked as agreed with the agreed materials. It's not credit. What is the customer going to do with a boiler if you just dump it on them because the system doesn't work in the end or you fail to complete the job? No-one tradesman would touch that and pick up where you left off.

You have 14 days to return anything you bought mailorder. Most suppliers will give you much more favorable returns policy.

Do you even give customers a SOW before starting?

Your analogy comparing it to shopping at Tesco says you're a bit thick.

 

[Aquaheat]

And you have customers with this attitude?

Not many just had one today that wound me up. 99% pay materials upfront.

Your job is to select materials, or if customer specifies to agree or reject them. Payment is on job completion when the system is proved to be worked as agreed with the agreed materials.

My job is to specify what the client needs to have the system working as they have requested. They need those materials not me. If I am wrong in any of what I have specified then my Indemnity insurance covers that. Why should I finance a £4k heating system (materials) on a promise of payment?

What is the customer going to do with a boiler if you just dump it on them because the system doesn't work in the end or you fail to complete the job?

Again, like i said my Indemnity insurance would cover a non working system should it be needed and I don't fail to complete jobs so a moot point really but as you bring it up they have a NET worth of materials for what they have paid for. Nothing more nothing less.

You have 14 days to return anything you bought mailorder. Most suppliers will give you much more favorable returns policy.

Either at your own cost and subject to restocking charges of up to 25% so why should I have to stand these as well if the customer cancels the job after ordering?

Do you even give customers a SOW before starting?

I do indeed. From the smallest of jobs up to full installs and system design the client always has what will be done, what is specified, what faults or hurdles that may occur (especially with older systems) and what we are to achieve as an end result along with projected timescales. This is sometimes a few lines in an email for small jobs up to multiple paged documents with full system specs etc etc. They also get a full copy of my T+C's

Jon

 

[DavidSWP]

And you have customers with this attitude?

Not many just had one today that wound me up. 99% pay materials upfront.

Your job is to select materials, or if customer specifies to agree or reject them. Payment is on job completion when the system is proved to be worked as agreed with the agreed materials.

My job is to specify what the client needs to have the system working as they have requested. They need those materials not me. If I am wrong in any of what I have specified then my Indemnity insurance covers that. Why should I finance a £4k heating system (materials) on a promise of payment?

What is the customer going to do with a boiler if you just dump it on them because the system doesn't work in the end or you fail to complete the job?

Again, like i said my Indemnity insurance would cover a non working system should it be needed and I don't fail to complete jobs so a moot point really but as you bring it up they have a NET worth of materials for what they have paid for. Nothing more nothing less.

You have 14 days to return anything you bought mailorder. Most suppliers will give you much more favorable returns policy.

Either at your own cost and subject to restocking charges of up to 25% so why should I have to stand these as well if the customer cancels the job after ordering?

Do you even give customers a SOW before starting?

I do indeed. From the smallest of jobs up to full installs and system design the client always has what will be done, what is specified, what faults or hurdles that may occur (especially with older systems) and what we are to achieve as an end result along with projected timescales. This is sometimes a few lines in an email for small jobs up to multiple paged documents with full system specs etc etc. They also get a full copy of my T+C's

Jon

Ok, I think you are just not very customer focused to be honest although you give a SOW so you are better than 99% of heating engineers/plumbers in that respect in my experience. If a customer requests 'fit a TRV valve on radiator to replace lockshield' I can understand wanting payment for materials upfront because not much can go wrong but if its anything that has systemic implications is a completely different kettle of fish. I don't agree when you say "They need those materials not me". They need the materials AND you. Materials alone are worse than useless to the customer.

I had this - plumber specified new boiler (I didn't question). He didn't complete job due to house wiring which he didn't check wasn't suitable to boiler and didn't even complete other necessary work that I didn't even know about at the time. Left me with a crock of ****e. I paid him in full after the initial install because problems became apparent later. I contacted every single plumber certified on that boiler within 25 miles and they would not touch it with barge pole. So I completed it myself. Now I'm an expert on S-Plan and condensate pipework. Never asked to be. This is what can happen even when NOT asked for material costs up-front. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER pay material costs upfront unless it was a trivial task. Very surprised that 99% of your customers pay upfront unless you are just doing minor works.

 

[Aquaheat]

I think you are just not very customer focused to be honest

Couldn't be more wrong but you have never called me but i do get what you may think form the OP

If a customer requests 'fit a TRV valve on radiator to replace lockshield' I can understand wanting payment for materials upfront because not much can go wrong but if its anything that has systemic implications is a completely different kettle of fish. I don't agree when you say "They need those materials not me". They need the materials AND you. Materials alone are worse than useless to the customer.

Not really as they are a stock item that sits in my stores and I would be called out to either a faulty valve or leak etc so it would be an on site repair and immediate payment would be required when the job was completed. You'd be surprised at how much can go wrong even on the simplest of jobs!

I trust my knowledge and so do my clients and if something doesn't work then it is sorted but i won't put £1000's of my own money into their properties. Why should I?

I had this - plumber specified new boiler (I didn't question). He didn't complete job due to house wiring which he didn't check wasn't suitable to boiler and didn't even complete other necessary work that I didn't even know about at the time. Left me with a crock of ****e. I paid him in full after the initial install because problems became apparent later.

Something doesn't quite ring true about this. How can a houses wiring not be suitable for the boiler? It seems to me that you didn't get a good engineer if what you say has happened. Sorry about that but that's why us good ones come at a premium and with our own terms. Did he provide you with a SOW?

Now I'm an expert on S-Plan and condensate pipework

Hmmm S Plan and condensate pipework does not a heating engineer make.

This is what can happen even when NOT asked for material costs up-front. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER pay material costs upfront unless it was a trivial task. Very surprised that 99% of your customers pay upfront unless you are just doing minor works.

Or what happens when you get a crap RGI or go for a budgetary restraints. You may never but mine do and they are the kind of customers I choose to work for. I'm lucky enough to be in a position to pick and choose them now. I cover all works from service, repair and installation ranging from £65 to £000's

Jon

 

[endecotp]

I always charge for materials upfront before I even order them whether its for £50 or £5000.

As a customer, I've honestly never had anyone ask me to pay for materials in advance.

As a self-employed trader (not in a diynot-related field!) I've generally been paid by my customers at the end of the month following the month when I submitted my invoice, i.e. 4 to 9 weeks after the work was done.

 

[DavidSWP]

I think you are just not very customer focused to be honest

Couldn't be more wrong but you have never called me but i do get what you may think form the OP

If a customer requests 'fit a TRV valve on radiator to replace lockshield' I can understand wanting payment for materials upfront because not much can go wrong but if its anything that has systemic implications is a completely different kettle of fish. I don't agree when you say "They need those materials not me". They need the materials AND you. Materials alone are worse than useless to the customer.

Not really as they are a stock item that sits in my stores and I would be called out to either a faulty valve or leak etc so it would be an on site repair and immediate payment would be required when the job was completed. You'd be surprised at how much can go wrong even on the simplest of jobs!

I trust my knowledge and so do my clients and if something doesn't work then it is sorted but i won't put £1000's of my own money into their properties. Why should I?

I had this - plumber specified new boiler (I didn't question). He didn't complete job due to house wiring which he didn't check wasn't suitable to boiler and didn't even complete other necessary work that I didn't even know about at the time. Left me with a crock of ****e. I paid him in full after the initial install because problems became apparent later.

Something doesn't quite ring true about this. How can a houses wiring not be suitable for the boiler? It seems to me that you didn't get a good engineer if what you say has happened. Sorry about that but that's why us good ones come at a premium and with our own terms. Did he provide you with a SOW?

Now I'm an expert on S-Plan and condensate pipework

Hmmm S Plan and condensate pipework does not a heating engineer make.

This is what can happen even when NOT asked for material costs up-front. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER pay material costs upfront unless it was a trivial task. Very surprised that 99% of your customers pay upfront unless you are just doing minor works.

Or what happens when you get a crap RGI or go for a budgetary restraints. You may never but mine do and they are the kind of customers I choose to work for. I'm lucky enough to be in a position to pick and choose them now. I cover all works from service, repair and installation ranging from £65 to £000's

Jon

"It seems to me that you didn't get a good engineer if what you say has happened." - no disagreement with you here. After I sorted that I then got another plumber just to replace a faulty pump. He spilt water over an electronic valve which ruined it and then asked me to pay to replace it. Yes I've had bad experiences and it's why I do everything myself now because everything I do works and even though I have to do hours of research its less hassle than getting a tradesman in.
"Did he provide you with a SOW?" - no he was a complete (gas safe, accredited) dick. I was too trusting.
"Hmmm S Plan and condensate pipework does not a heating engineer make" - I never claimed to be one

Not sure what RGI is. I just don't think you should charge for materials upfront because the customer is paying for a full service and the materials alone are useless to them. If you are so good that you can get customers to pay for materials upfront then more power to you. I just think you would miss out on a lot of customers but as you have enough already who am I to preach to you - it's your business.

Isn't this a DIY forum? Seems like a trademan's forum..

 

[Newboy]

@DavidSWP While I understand your comments about being stitched up by a poor installation there area few points to bear in mind from a trade point of view.

1) Once the materials are at your house they are (generally) at your risk
2) Once they are fixed in place an installer cannot remove them (legally)
3) On a larger job, the financial exposure to a poor customer can be significant and irrecoverable
4) Minor jobs are the one's where no up-front payment is needed - low risk
5) Materials have a value and are the customers property once paid for

I suspect that we've (trade) all had a few bad experiences with slow-paying customers - usually the one's who want everything done as quickly as possible but seem to be slow finding card/cheque when the jobs finished.