Why do customers think they are entitled to credit?

[DavidSWP]

Ok so this is a situation about a (probably*) minor job but with materials you would not hold on stock. Period sinks - taps that you would probably not be able to use for another customer. So I would say, "please pay for taps upfront because they are a specialised item, balance payment on satisfactory completion." . Sounds like you are talking about a very particular incident whereas your OP sounded like a general gripe. Sit down, have a Whiskey

* Fully agree that minor jobs can turn out to have a lot of problems..

But I don't stock boilers, unvented cylinders, PCB's, Divertor valves, Baths, showers etc etc. Do you realise how many different parts are available in many different styles, sizes, guises and colours. I keep general stock items to the tune of about £4k and I won't hold any more than that.

There are very few "standard" plumbing or heating jobs.

I just wanted to see why credit was thought to be an entitlement rather than a privilege of a long standing or trusted client?

Sat down with beer in hand though David. Cheers

Jon

But you made the point earlier about stock items "Not really as they are a stock item that sits in my stores". As people have said this 'credit' is the case in multiple industries. I totally agree with endecotp . You are free to run your business as you wish and if its working then its working but you may get bigger/more interesting jobs by changing policy. This ****er with the period sinks is probably some rich toff with a temporary cash flow problem, you could end up doing all the heating in his extensive By to Let portfolio and his castle. I understand where you are coming from though, you are sensible.

 

[Driver123]

Interesting thread because I'm just about to get a new boiler and central heating modifications carried out. The heating engineer has asked for and been given a 50% deposit. It surprised me that this is his policy to be honest because I have had extensive work carried out over the last three years involving plumbers, electricians, builders, plasterers etc. and not one of them has asked for payment up front. The reason I agreed to give him it is that he is a well established firm with excellent online reviews but it does worry me what would happen in the unlikely event that his company went bust before the work was carried out. Also I googled it and it does seem common for heating engineers to ask for money up front. From his point of view I can understand that he has to buy a large amount of materials before he starts the job. From my point of view, I can't afford to lose the money so I will be counting the days until the job is started.

Buyer beware. I would not pay anything until work is completed satisfactorily. What use is a half working system to you? More grief than its worth. OP seems to think that you got some stuff that is useful to you once its on your premises. If the company goes bankrupt half way through, try finding someone to pick up where they left of - [yoda]find it easy you willl not [/yoda]. And its not "unlikely" that there will be problems. There's a reason this industry has a bad rep.

I take your point but this company definitely doesn't have a bad rep. Like I said it has excellent online reviews and this is obviously his policy as the terms and conditions on his website say so. I'm not too worried as it is a long established company.

 

[Driver123]

Interesting thread because I'm just about to get a new boiler and central heating modifications carried out. The heating engineer has asked for and been given a 50% deposit. It surprised me that this is his policy to be honest because I have had extensive work carried out over the last three years involving plumbers, electricians, builders, plasterers etc. and not one of them has asked for payment up front. The reason I agreed to give him it is that he is a well established firm with excellent online reviews but it does worry me what would happen in the unlikely event that his company went bust before the work was carried out. Also I googled it and it does seem common for heating engineers to ask for money up front. From his point of view I can understand that he has to buy a large amount of materials before he starts the job. From my point of view, I can't afford to lose the money so I will be counting the days until the job is started.

Just as an addition to your post and as the OP may be I can lessen your worry a bit more.

You invited this gent into your home and he walked and talked with you discussing your requirements and options with you. You felt comfortable enough then to go ahead with his quote regardless of the price but it must have been reasonable but he inspired the most confidence in you.

He then asked for a 50% deposit. You were comfortable to pass this on too. While I can't give an exact representation to your situation let me tell yo what I would've done.

If the job was more than 1 week in advance I would have asked for £100 deposit to hold the install slot.

1 week before I would require the money for the materials to be cleared funds by whatever means you see fit and I would order all materials to be either delivered to your property or mine whichever is mutually acceptable.

You then wouldn't pay another penny until the job is complete, you have had a tour round the system, shown it's working and explained the set up to you, all paperworks completed on site and boiler registered.

50% might be a little excessive but I can't see the job and at the end of the day that is his terms. Did he give you a Schedule of Works?

Jon

Thanks for your reply. I haven't had a schedule of works. What is that and how would it help me?

 

[Aquaheat]

@Driver123 A Schedule of Works (SOW) is basically a statement of what you want to achieve and was discussed at the initial quote stage. It will state what is going to happen, how and when. Ideally it should state equipment to be used and a general timescale and any problems that may occur eg pressurising an OV system could burst joints and rads. This should then be backed up with the quoted price.

Hard to do quickly on here but say a boiler change it would be along the lines of

Drain system, remove existing Baxi boiler from garage, make good flue whole with matching bricks as supplied by customer.
Repipe to new position in kitchen in appropriate sized pipework.
Carry out full system flush to bring TDS within 10% of mains incoming.
Hang new Intergas Rapide in kitchen as per discussed position.
Repipe and carry out final flush and and inhibitor.
Re run gas pipe in 22mm externally as existing 15mm supply is too small as discussed.
All works will be carried out according to the current building regulations in force and will comply to GSIUR 1998. Boiler will be notified to building control and registered with Gas Safe.
The above works will take 2 days should there be no unforeseen problems. Should this not be able to happen the reasons why will be explained.
As discussed you are converting an unpressurised system to a pressurised one and was explained that this has inherent risks of leaks. While all precautions will be taken should this happen further works may be required and we cannot be held liable.

The above is very brief and I would normally be a lot more specific but it gives you a very general idea.

Jon

 

[Driver123]

@Driver123 A Schedule of Works (SOW) is basically a statement of what you want to achieve and was discussed at the initial quote stage. It will state what is going to happen, how and when. Ideally it should state equipment to be used and a general timescale and any problems that may occur eg pressurising an OV system could burst joints and rads. This should then be backed up with the quoted price.

Hard to do quickly on here but say a boiler change it would be along the lines of

Drain system, remove existing Baxi boiler from garage, make good flue whole with matching bricks as supplied by customer.
Repipe to new position in kitchen in appropriate sized pipework.
Carry out full system flush to bring TDS within 10% of mains incoming.
Hang new Intergas Rapide in kitchen as per discussed position.
Repipe and carry out final flush and and inhibitor.
Re run gas pipe in 22mm externally as existing 15mm supply is too small as discussed.
All works will be carried out according to the current building regulations in force and will comply to GSIUR 1998. Boiler will be notified to building control and registered with Gas Safe.
The above works will take 2 days should there be no unforeseen problems. Should this not be able to happen the reasons why will be explained.
As discussed you are converting an unpressurised system to a pressurised one and was explained that this has inherent risks of leaks. While all precautions will be taken should this happen further works may be required and we cannot be held liable.

The above is very brief and I would normally be a lot more specific but it gives you a very general idea.

Jon

Ah OK. Yes he did state on the quote what work he was going to carry including flushing etc. He did also explain the risks of pressuring the system which I wasn't previously aware of. The quote was actually slightly less than his initial estimate with more work. So I was satisfied and happy to hire him.

 

[Aquaheat]

"Not really as they are a stock item that sits in my stores".

I did indeed but these are for first fix jobs really as in a breakdown can be completed in one visit. I have still had to outlay that though.

but you may get bigger/more interesting jobs by changing policy.

I get many big and interesting jobs. If the jobs are a little too big or interesting I let a drainage guy do it!!

This ****er with the period sinks is probably some rich toff with a temporary cash flow problem, you could end up doing all the heating in his extensive By to Let portfolio and his castle.

You'd be surprised how many times I hear that in a week. "Oh sort me out on this and I have 20 flats in such and such. My mate has a big job coming up. I'll pass you round all my mates they are desperate someone etc etc" I never work on promises David.

Funny you should mention being rich though, this guy wasn't (on the outside), but they are the hardest to get paid off most of the time!! They didn't get rich by paying loads out.

I understand where you are coming from though, you are sensible.

Thanks, I just try and run a proper business. I don't class myself as a one man band but a business that will expand and to do that I have to protect all my interests. I won't allow someone elses credit worthiness or unworthiness to affect my families home, my business, my reputation or my kids inheritance.

You say sensible I call it damage limitation lol

Thanks for your views though it was good to actually have a proper discussion in here!

Jon

 

[Aquaheat]

@Driver123 A Schedule of Works (SOW) is basically a statement of what you want to achieve and was discussed at the initial quote stage. It will state what is going to happen, how and when. Ideally it should state equipment to be used and a general timescale and any problems that may occur eg pressurising an OV system could burst joints and rads. This should then be backed up with the quoted price.

Hard to do quickly on here but say a boiler change it would be along the lines of

Drain system, remove existing Baxi boiler from garage, make good flue whole with matching bricks as supplied by customer.
Repipe to new position in kitchen in appropriate sized pipework.
Carry out full system flush to bring TDS within 10% of mains incoming.
Hang new Intergas Rapide in kitchen as per discussed position.
Repipe and carry out final flush and and inhibitor.
Re run gas pipe in 22mm externally as existing 15mm supply is too small as discussed.
All works will be carried out according to the current building regulations in force and will comply to GSIUR 1998. Boiler will be notified to building control and registered with Gas Safe.
The above works will take 2 days should there be no unforeseen problems. Should this not be able to happen the reasons why will be explained.
As discussed you are converting an unpressurised system to a pressurised one and was explained that this has inherent risks of leaks. While all precautions will be taken should this happen further works may be required and we cannot be held liable.

The above is very brief and I would normally be a lot more specific but it gives you a very general idea.

Jon

Ah OK. Yes he did state on the quote what work he was going to carry including flushing etc. He did also explain the risks of pressuring the system which I wasn't previously aware of. The quote was actually slightly less than his initial estimate with more work. So I was satisfied and happy to hire him.

Well let us know how it goes please as it would be helpful to others from the experience of a client.

Cheers Jon

 

[Driver123]

@Driver123 A Schedule of Works (SOW) is basically a statement of what you want to achieve and was discussed at the initial quote stage. It will state what is going to happen, how and when. Ideally it should state equipment to be used and a general timescale and any problems that may occur eg pressurising an OV system could burst joints and rads. This should then be backed up with the quoted price.

Hard to do quickly on here but say a boiler change it would be along the lines of

Drain system, remove existing Baxi boiler from garage, make good flue whole with matching bricks as supplied by customer.
Repipe to new position in kitchen in appropriate sized pipework.
Carry out full system flush to bring TDS within 10% of mains incoming.
Hang new Intergas Rapide in kitchen as per discussed position.
Repipe and carry out final flush and and inhibitor.
Re run gas pipe in 22mm externally as existing 15mm supply is too small as discussed.
All works will be carried out according to the current building regulations in force and will comply to GSIUR 1998. Boiler will be notified to building control and registered with Gas Safe.
The above works will take 2 days should there be no unforeseen problems. Should this not be able to happen the reasons why will be explained.
As discussed you are converting an unpressurised system to a pressurised one and was explained that this has inherent risks of leaks. While all precautions will be taken should this happen further works may be required and we cannot be held liable.

The above is very brief and I would normally be a lot more specific but it gives you a very general idea.

Jon

Ah OK. Yes he did state on the quote what work he was going to carry including flushing etc. He did also explain the risks of pressuring the system which I wasn't previously aware of. The quote was actually slightly less than his initial estimate with more work. So I was satisfied and happy to hire him.

Well let us know how it goes please as it would be helpful to others from the experience of a client.

Cheers Jon

Will do. Thanks.

 

[dreadnoughtheating]

Jon, the only analogy I can come up with in a similar situation to yours (and mine!), is the restaurant/hotel trade, where they have to hope that the punters don't do a runner after a meal with a couple bottles opened and enjoyed, or steal the bedding and tea maker....

I just ask for 50% on day one of an install. Works for me. like you I do carry a lot of van-stock, taps, try's boiler spares DV's etc.

 

[Agile]

Not sure what RGI is. I just don't think you should charge for materials upfront because the customer is paying for a full service and the materials alone are useless to them. If you are so good that you can get customers to pay for materials upfront then more power to you. I just think you would miss out on a lot of customers but as you have enough already who am I to preach to you - it's your business.

Isn't this a DIY forum? Seems like a trademan's forum..

Very simply, as you don't seem able to understand easy concepts!

If I am going to install a new £1000 boiler for you and then you don't pay me I have lost £1000 plus a few days work!

I always ask the customer to pay for the boiler and that's never any problem. At least not for those who intend to pay.

But at least if you don't pay and have paid for the boiler all I have lost is a few days work.

Not hard cash!

Its also a useful test of a customer as if he will not pay for the boiler then I suspect he will not want to pay for anything! Those are the ones to avoid!

Tony



PS

RGI is Registered Gas Installer!

 

[DavidSWP]

Not sure what RGI is. I just don't think you should charge for materials upfront because the customer is paying for a full service and the materials alone are useless to them. If you are so good that you can get customers to pay for materials upfront then more power to you. I just think you would miss out on a lot of customers but as you have enough already who am I to preach to you - it's your business.

Isn't this a DIY forum? Seems like a trademan's forum..

Very simply, as you don't seem able to understand easy concepts!

If I am going to install a new £1000 boiler for you and then you don't pay me I have lost £1000 plus a few days work!

I always ask the customer to pay for the boiler and that's never any problem. At least not for those who intend to pay.

But at least if you don't pay and have paid for the boiler all I have lost is a few days work.

Not hard cash!

Its also a useful test of a customer as if he will not pay for the boiler then I suspect he will not want to pay for anything! Those are the ones to avoid!

Tony



PS

RGI is Registered Gas Installer!

Like I and all other respondents on this thread (non-trade/customers) - we've never been asked for anything upfront. There again I've had ****y plumbers. Should I be looking for the ones who charge for materials upfront and would this guarentee a good job? Maybe but I doubt that there is any correlation. As I said to the OP you can run your business however you like.

If you install a boiler and it is working properly at the end and you don't get paid you can take the customer to court.
If I pay you in advance and you install a boiler and it doesn't work properly I can take you to court.

I think that paying for everything after a successful installation makes more sense. You know where the customer lives but business entities are far more tricky to get cash out of.

Which way you do it (payment before or after) is up to you and your business model. I have no problem with it as long as it is clear and upfront. I simply would not employ someone who asked for payment for materials up-front and you have the perfect right not to deal with me.

The alternative is to regulate the industry. In that case I would say that there should legislation mandating a 14 day trial period after installation and an ombudman dealing with disputes. In the case where a system is not working as designed to a significant extent then a full refund should be given irrespective of if said boiler is still in the customer's dwelling. Partial refunds should apply in other cases decided by an independant inspection body.

 

[Agile]

If you install a boiler and it is working properly at the end and you don't get paid you can take the customer to court.

If I pay you in advance and you install a boiler and it doesn't work properly I can take you to court.

I think that paying for everything after a successful installation makes more sense. You know where the customer lives but business entities are far more tricky to get cash out of.

If you pay for the boiler up front and I install it and it does not work, then you will not pay me for the installation. You don't need to take me to court.

Unfortunately the customer has too many advantages!

The installers have none.

Its a lot of time taking customers to court, even with a judgement on our favour there is still the problem of actually getting any money out of them. Many are serial non payers who are expert at it.

Luckily most customers are honest and will pay. But not all.

Tony

 

[DavidSWP]

If you pay for the boiler up front and I install it and it does not work, then you will not pay me for the installation. You don't need to take me to court.
Tony

No mate, I'd claim the cost of the boiler back from you. You can have the boiler back as long as you pay me for the hassle caused.

Its the same on both sides - whether I didn't pay in advance versus you have my money already but I have a none working system. Its difficult to get the money - I've been there. Business entities are very hard to get money out of, especially if they are limited liability they can just fold and walk away, not so for a householder.

But you and the other tradespeople on this post seem to think the customer has gained a £1000 boiler (or whatever) for nothing if the tradesman abandoned the job or it doesn't work as described. They haven't gained anything apart from hassle. You try getting anyone to come and complete a bodged installation - its impossible. How much do you think I would get on ebay if selling said £1000 boiler if I accurately described it "Boiler RRP £1000, fitted but system not working properly, by the way you'll have to come and have a gassafe registered engineer to uninstall it" - £50 maybe? I'd probably pay someone to come and take it away.

We pay for a working system.

 

[hazetimesfive]

I've completed many a bodged installation.

although it's not a policy I operate under, I do think 50% up front is fair, payment in full on completion and not 2-3 weeks later 'when you feel like it'

If there are any issues with the work etc then we can go to court or a mediation service, large companies may have the bankroll to operate whilst being owed money but a lot of smaller guys cannot.

 

[ub7rm]

As a customer I can see it both ways.

If it was a smallish job to replace a common component, say a heating pump or a divertor valve, I wouldn't expect to have to pay for the part up front - mostly because chances are I wouldn't know what was wrong and I would expect it to be fixed either within the first visit or very shortly thereafter.

If I wanted a very specific item fitted, like the fancy tap, I can see the argument but in that scenario chances are I would have bought the item myself beforehand.

On large jobs I'd be happy to pay for materials up front and pay the tradesman in staged payments as the job progresses - but at the point I paid for the materials they would become mine, not the tradesmans, but he would still be responsible for the warranty.