?? why?

[ebee]

View attachment 387714
This one's handy to plug the hair dryer in without getting out of the shower

Reminds me of those "Dolphin Showers" a few years back.
The number of times I found them wired back to back with a bedroom socket on the Ring Final via a length of 2.5 T & E, I think they were around 6KW , blooming massive housing with an element of a wire coil in a perspex block as the heater

 

[SUNRAY]

What danger(s) did it present?

A cable in the wall with a buried junction box would be allowed, wouldn't it?

And how would the safe zone be marked?

 

[securespark]

What danger(s) did it present?

A cable in the wall with a buried junction box would be allowed, wouldn't it?

As it happened, the grout was failing in that area. I didn't fancy water getting into the junction box with me being wet and naked very close by.

Maybe the risk was very low, but I'm not a massive risk taker and as soon as I knew about it, I rearranged the ring final legs to exclude that socket.

Would you have been happy to leave it there?

 

[ebee]

I would not be. I might be sneaky enough to leave the socket nicely showing inside the shower cubicle to see what a talking point it might be.

Some folk would look and not even notice.

A relative of mine decided a T & E hanging out back out of the shower switch after the box had been cleaned out of plaster debris was dangerous.
He had assumed that the supply end was connected.

Conversely, I was asked to investigate a shocks from where an Electric Shower had been removed for retiling the surrounding area.
The builder had (presumably) flicked the MCB, opened the DP switch, joined the switch connections from 4 terminals to two terminals, 2 Reds in one terminal and 2 Blacks in another.
Presumably the builder thought that the terminals and switch allowed to shower to switch to ON and parking them without the switch in circuit parked them in OFF. Hmm! and someone (the builder or one of the occupants) had later switched the MCB.

Result, unexpected shocks and not even an RCD in sight.

I am not kidding!

 

[morqthana]

A cable in the wall with a buried junction box would be allowed, wouldn't it?

No

Why not?

 

[morqthana]

As it happened, the grout was failing in that area. I didn't fancy water getting into the junction box with me being wet and naked very close by.

How well does electricity flow through clean water?

 

[securespark]

As I said, I'd rather not risk it.

Now, answer the question.

 

[securespark]

Why not?

And how would the safe zone be marked?

 

[morqthana]

Seriously?

Am I the only one who can see that whether the cable & JB should be buried in ANY wall is dependent on issues totally unrelated to whether it can be in a tiled wall of a shower enclosure?

When we redid our ensuite, I smacked the tiles off the wall where the shower was and there was a double socket box with live cables terminated in a junction box buried underneath the tiles...

So, in order to avoid any doubt, uncertainty, misunderstanding, or not grasping what the key issue is, then assuming that it was OK for that double socket box with live cables terminated in a junction box to be where it was irrespective of whether the wall was painted, wallpapered, panelled or tiled, and irrespective of whether the wall partly enclosed a bedroom, or a living room, or a hallway, or a WC, or a kitchen, or a bathroom, or a shower,

A cable in the wall with a buried junction box would be allowed, wouldn't it?

 

[morqthana]

And how would the safe zone be marked?

Why are you assuming that it needs to be?

 

[securespark]

Do you run cables in walls without?

It wasn't in a corner.

 

[ebee]

Well for one I am making an assumption, when it was stated "junction box" I assumed it was a bog standard junction box rather than one deemed maintenance free such as a wago type set up.
If that is the case then that alone would be enough for me.
I must admit I am not totally convinced of the MF idea or the reliability of "wago types" for all current carrying scenarios but that is purely my bad and many may quite rightly disagree with me on that one.
Also the "probable" lack of protection of being out of a permitted zone - I am not a fan of all of those permitted zones and the verticals are my favourite followed by the horizontals say especially in kitchens where their presence might be judged as more likely. The ones that concern me the most are the corners, I do not like them and even more so the corner of the top portion of a wall. Yes all of these are permitted but some I am not easily pleased with along with the idea of the 2" (50mm) depth too.
The problem of accidental breakage and impact protection and lack of ingress protection via moisture also worries with a standard JB, yes the same could be true of a metal box in the wall for a socket or a switch etc and believe me I have found some really corrosion rotted boxes but at least they can be inspected periodically with more ease.
A cable unbroken (say T & E) in a wall would have at least some better IP to protect it unless there is a soldered joint etc in there.

 

[morqthana]

Do you run cables in walls without?

It would seem not.

It wasn't in a corner.

Then that should have been mentioned, and been the thrust of your complaint.

You posted as if it was only the fact that it was in a tiled wall of a shower enclosure that was relevant. As if being where a cable and junction box should not be in any wall was of so little consequence that it didn't warrant a mention.

When we redid our ensuite, I smacked the tiles off the wall where the shower was and there was a double socket box with live cables terminated in a junction box buried underneath the tiles...

23 years we had been showering in the flipping shower with it like that.

In the days when the room was just a bedroom, they didn't bother to get rid of the socket wiring when they put the shower in!

Imagine if the previous owners had not put in a shower, but had still removed the socket in the same way, filled/plastered it all in, and papered over it. Then at some later time you redecorated, stripped off the wallpaper, seen evidence of a removed socket, done a bit of investigation and found what you did.

Would you say "we had been sleeping in the flipping bedroom with it like that" ?

Would you exclaim "they didn't bother to get rid of the socket wiring when they decorated!" ?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I am more concerned with -

I smacked the tiles off the wall where the shower was

 

[morqthana]

Well for one I am making an assumption, when it was stated "junction box" I assumed it was a bog standard junction box rather than one deemed maintenance free such as a wago type set up.
If that is the case then that alone would be enough for me.

And if that is the case then that alone is enough to complain about and the fact that it was behind a tiled wall in a shower enclosure is not relevant.

I must admit I am not totally convinced of the MF idea or the reliability of "wago types" for all current carrying scenarios but that is purely my bad and many may quite rightly disagree with me on that one.

You presumably don't have to use them?

Also the "probable" lack of protection of being out of a permitted zone - I am not a fan of all of those permitted zones and the verticals are my favourite followed by the horizontals say especially in kitchens where their presence might be judged as more likely. The ones that concern me the most are the corners, I do not like them and even more so the corner of the top portion of a wall. Yes all of these are permitted but some I am not easily pleased with along with the idea of the 2" (50mm) depth too.

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean you can say that a cable and an appropriate junction box are not allowed in those locations.*

The problem of accidental breakage and impact protection and lack of ingress protection via moisture also worries with a standard JB, yes the same could be true of a metal box in the wall for a socket or a switch etc and believe me I have found some really corrosion rotted boxes but at least they can be inspected periodically with more ease.
A cable unbroken (say T & E) in a wall would have at least some better IP to protect it unless there is a soldered joint etc in there.

I recently bought some of those Wago junction boxes - they aren't waterproof in any way.

And yet in one of those corner zones it would be allowed, irrespective of whether the wall was painted, wallpapered, panelled or tiled, and irrespective of whether the wall partly enclosed a bedroom, or a living room, or a hallway, or a WC, or a kitchen, or a bathroom, or a shower.


* And before you think of saying you didn't, look back at the context.

Posts 1-7 had been about those sockets half covered by a floor.

#8 - you introduced the topic of a socket in a shower room.

#10 - securespark posted about what he'd found behind the tiles in a shower enclosure, saying not one thing about it not being in a permitted zone.

#12 & #13 continued the theme of situations relevant to showers.

So, summarising, the context was only about showers, and nothing to do with generic restrictions on buried cables, and in that context I asked "A cable in the wall with a buried junction box would be allowed, wouldn't it?"

And you said "No".