Wiring into an external garage one meter from house?

[JohnW2]

Not being funny, John, but if you want to take the actual words of the law..... Why, in Scedule 4, Part 1, does it state that: ..... So, you can only replace a socket outlet, without notification, as long as it doesn't include any 'new fixed cabling'.

Yes, but that's the bit about replacing (broken etc.) things, without having to do anything to the fixed wiring. However, as you say, look a bit further down Schedule 4 ('the word of the law') you're allowed to add sockets etc. to existing circuits. Although you say:

..it doesn't mention extending circuits with new fixed wiring, does it???

...I'm not sure whether you're being serious, since there obviously is no way of adding sockets without adding any new fixed wiring!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on BAS's 'side' - I'm on the side of common sense, just like you!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Electrifying]

Not being funny, John, but if you want to take the actual words of the law..... Why, in Scedule 4, Part 1, does it state that: ..... So, you can only replace a socket outlet, without notification, as long as it doesn't include any 'new fixed cabling'.

Yes, but that's the bit about replacing (broken etc.) things, without having to do anything to the fixed wiring. However, as you say, look a bit further down Schedule 4 ('the word of the law') you're allowed to add sockets etc. to existing circuits. Although you say:

..it doesn't mention extending circuits with new fixed wiring, does it???

...I'm not sure whether you're being serious, since there obviously is no way of adding sockets without adding any new fixed wiring!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on BAS's 'side' - I'm on the side of common sense, just like you!

Kind Regards, John.

So, just so I know that you're being serious........you're telling me that:-

I can replace a broken socket outlet, but if it involves any 'new fixed cabling', then I'll have to notify (as per part 1)

Yet I can run 10 meters of 4mm SWA to a detached garage and power 6 double socket outlets and a bank of lights.........without notification.

REALLY??????

That's how you're reading Schedule 4?????

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why, in Scedule 4, Part 1, does it state that:

1. Work consisting of—

(a)replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does not include the provision of—.

(i)any new fixed cabling

So, you can only replace a socket outlet, without notification, as long as it doesn't include any 'new fixed cabling'.

Or replace a fixed appliance.

The reason that Schedule 4 says that is so that the simple replacement of accessories and appliances can be done without notification.

Where the replacement is more than just that, and involves rewiring as well, it does not become exempt from notification via that paragraph.

Yet BAS interprets that you can run a new cable to a detached garage and supply power to new sockets and lighting, without notification!

Thats what it says - it needs very little "interpretation". All it needs, really, is to be able to read.

You can run a new cable to your living room and supply power to new sockets and lighting too, you know, without notification!

The mind boggles.

Mine doesn't.

But then it works much better than yours does.

If you take 1 a (i) as 'LAW', then 2 c (i) & (ii) only covers 'adding' sockets/light fittings to a circuit.........it doesn't mention extending circuits with new fixed wiring, does it???

Adding isn't extending.

Well, I guess you can either fall in with the Stoday/Paul_C camp of trying to break Schedule 4, and of deliberately reading it in ways which create inconsistencies (Stoday, you may recall, was the guy who decided that as Para 1 says that providing a consumer unit was not exempt, if you provided two or more it was exempt.)

Or you could take the view that it's so ******* obvious that to add light fittings, switches, sockets and spurs to existing circuits you might well have to add some cables that they have to become an integral part of the job.

You can either decide to read Schedule 4 in a way which actually creates the situation where there is virtually no point to it whatsoever because, for example, it only exempts adding wall lights in your living room if you can do it without adding any cables, or you can decide to read it in the way that it was written, i.e. to provide a list of work which is not notifiable and can actually be done.

And why would they allow you to provide new fixed cabling in one bit, and not the other??

Ooh - how about so that people could replace built-in kitchen appliances without having to notify?

 

[JohnW2]

["“special installation” means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994"
It seems perfectly straightforward and clear to me.

You can't have thought too deeply, then. I would suggest that "an outdoor electric power installation" is anything but 'straightforward and clear'. Many (electrically) 'lay' people, maybe including lawyers and judges, would probably imagine that 'an installation' was something much more grand or involved than a mere socket or light fitting. In the context of a law, it really should be defined (IIRC, even BS7671 defines an electrical installation) - in which case it would become clear as to whether it included just wiring.

But then I'm not approaching it with the mindset that it ought to say something else

That's the bit which surprises me. This is not the BAS we know (and love?), striving to protect people from the hazards of their electrical adventures. I would have expected you to be the first person to think that activities involving the burying of cables in a garden ought to be notifiable, not the least so that LABC could be satisfied (by one of the means available) that we were not talking about bell wire in a hospipe 6 inches below the surface!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

So, just so I know that you're being serious........you're telling me that:- I can replace a broken socket outlet, but if it involves any 'new fixed cabling', then I'll have to notify (as per part 1)

Is this a wind up? Provided it's not in a special location, kitchen etc. (or maybe garden!!), you can, without notification, (i) replace a damaged socket, (ii) replace any damaged cable (whether or not in association with replacing the socket) OR (iii) add sockets or spurs to an existing circuit (which obviously implies that one can add the assocated fixed cables without notification)

Yet I can run 10 meters of 4mm SWA to a detached garage and power 6 double socket outlets and a bank of lights.........without notification.

Well, even BAS would presumably not say that you could do that without notification unless it was an extension of an existing circuit - but, yes, he might believe that if it were a circuit extension. It sounds crazy to me, but the law is so badly written that it's impossible to find anything there which explicity and unambigously says that such is notifiable. Of course, if power and lighting circuits were already in the garage, I think we'd all agree that extending them with your 6 double sockets and a bank of lights would not be notifiable!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Electrifying]

Okay, I'll phrase the questions a bit easier for BAS - a simple yes or no will do.

1) If I extend my existing downstairs 4mm socket radial - in 4mm SWA to my detached garage, where I feed 6 double socket outlets and then an FCU to 1.5mm T&E feeding three, individually switched, fluorescent lights..........Do I have to notify?? (See Schedule 4 - 2 c (i) & (ii))


2) If I replace my cooker, but move it to the other side of my kitchen, making it necessary to move the cooker connection point and extend the cable..........Do I have to notify?? (See Scedule 4 - 1 a (i))

If you can read plain english, your answers have to be 1) NO 2) YES ........
..........But FFS, the answers should be 1) YES 2) NO

Unless the world really has gone mad.

What would I issue for Scenario 1, by the way......a Minor Works???? ha ha

 

[JohnW2]

If you can read plain english, your answers have to be 1) NO 2) YES ........
..........But FFS, the answers should be 1) YES 2) NO
Unless the world really has gone mad.

Exactly. It's not the world which has gone mad but, rather, Part P of the Building Regulations. It's little surprise that many people appear to treat that legislation with the degree of contempt which they believe it deserves. BS7671 has its moments, too - with a similar effect on some people!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You can't have thought too deeply, then. I would suggest that "an outdoor electric power installation" is anything but 'straightforward and clear'. Many (electrically) 'lay' people, maybe including lawyers and judges, would probably imagine that 'an installation' was something much more grand or involved than a mere socket or light fitting.

Actually I think that lawyers and judges would be finely attuned to issues of definitions.

In the context of a law, it really should be defined (IIRC, even BS7671 defines an electrical installation) - in which case it would become clear as to whether it included just wiring.

Many things should be a certain way.

That they are not does not make it reasonable to disregard whatever way is defined in order to make things fit what you think they should be.

That's the bit which surprises me. This is not the BAS we know (and love?), striving to protect people from the hazards of their electrical adventures.

Striving by getting people to raise their game, as well you know, not by hiding behind issues of notifiability.

Striving, as well you know, to stress that compliance with Part P is completely unrelated to whether something is notifiable.

Striving to point out that documents which say that something is "within the scope of Part P" are not saying "notifiable".

I would have expected you to be the first person to think that activities involving the burying of cables in a garden ought to be notifiable, not the least so that LABC could be satisfied (by one of the means available) that we were not talking about bell wire in a hospipe 6 inches below the surface!

To be consistent with the way that any work involving cables buried in internal walls is notifiable, you mean?

Or is this an area where you would like to create a reading which actually introduces an inconsistency?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you can read plain english, your answers have to be 1) NO 2) YES ........

That's right.

..........But FFS, the answers should be 1) YES 2) NO

So you believe.

But I'm afraid that belief does not make it right for you to tell people that the answers are YES and NO, in clear contradiction of the wording in the legislation, it does not make it right for you to band together with other electricians and writers of guides which are in clear contradiction of the wording in the legislation and it does not make it right for you to do these things in order to "simplify" the legislative requirements and to allow a large group of people who cannot or will not read the legislation properly to be "consistent" in their message.

Unless the world really has gone mad.

You seem to be forgetting that a significant part of the motivation for Part P, notification, and what's in Schedule 4 (or 2B as was) was to give electricians, or more precisely NICEIC and the ECA, control over the large, and therefore lucrative, markets for bathroom and kitchen electrics, and to, in theory, take it away from incompetent plumbers and bathroom and kitchen fitters.

There is a much smaller one involving landscape gardeners doing outdoor lighting etc work.

That we have ended up with that does not give you the right to misrepresent what is because you think it should be different.

What would I issue for Scenario 1, by the way......a Minor Works???? ha ha

I wouldn't suggest it.

No doubt you'll drag up another document which does not define the law and tries to make out that notifiability somehow depends on whether the work needs an EIC or MEWIC.

 

[Paul_C]

In my house, this is the route that the cables take for the lighting upstairs aand in the loft:

From the meter under the stairs into the floor void on the landing.

Then along under the landing floor, under the bathroom floor, up through a cupboard in the bathroom (used to contain the HWC) into the loft, and then to each lighting point for the landing, bedrooms, bath, WC & loft.

So if I add a light in a bedroom, is it notifiable because the cable runs under the bathroom floor?

No, but then if you just add a light by wiring across in the attic you're not doing anything in the bathroom are you? The cable is already there. (Not that running a new cable under the bathroom floor would make it notifiable anyway, as it's outside the defined bathroom zones and thus not in a "special location.")

But if you install a socket that would be notifiable - it would clearly be an outside power installation.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but what makes a cable outdoors not part of an outside power installation? Is it part of a power installation? Is it outdoors? In the absence of any further definition as to what "outdoor lighting or electric power installation" is supposed to mean which could override the natural meaning, surely those are the only two pertinent questions?

What if you decided to run an underground cable from your porch to a weatherproof 2-way switch at your front gate so that you could turn your porch light on as you enter from the street? Would you say that's notifiable?

I would like to add an extra socket [in the garage] nearer to the door for the mower / hoovering the car, am I allowed to do this and if so would it be a spur or an extension into the back of the current socket.

Again, adding a socket to an existing circuit is exempt from notification*. Whether your addition would be classed as a spur or not (by the Wiring Regs. definition of the term) would depend upon whether the existing socket is part of a ring or not.

* Subject to these not being in certain locations, none of which would apply to your garage.

Different situation. In that case there was already power in the garage and the proposed additional socket was purely internal work. It didn't involve the installation of an underground feeder to the garage.

If you want to hand over hundreds of pounds to your council because you want to listen to people who cannot or will not read what the law says, or who want to tell you things which are not what the law says because they think it would be simpler for you to understand than the truth then go ahead.

Well, let's also point out that even if something is notifiable, the chances of anything bad (officially speaking) happening even if it's not notified are slim, to put it mildly, as has been discussed here before. So even if something clearly and indisputably is notifiable, you should judge whether you really want to hand over anything from about £150 to £400 of your hard-earned money to the local council anyway.

A socket in a garage is not an outdoor power installation because inside the garage is not outdoors.

Lights in a garage are not an outdoor lighting installation because inside the garage is not outdoors.

No, but the cable which is being laid to the garage is outdoors. Isn't that cable part of the installation?

 

[Paul_C]

If you take 1 a (i) as 'LAW', then 2 c (i) & (ii) only covers 'adding' sockets/light fittings to a circuit.........it doesn't mention extending circuits with new fixed wiring, does it???

Indirectly it does. 2(c) talks about "work which consists of adding" sockets, lights, etc. Clearly if you wish to add a socket 6 feet away from any existing part of the system, you need to run a cable to it, so extending the circuit with that cable is a necessary part of the "work which consists of adding" the socket.

The fact that para. 1 contains a restriction on replacements about no new fixed cabling in no way affects the way that para. 2 should be interpreted, as the two sets of exemptions need to be read entirely separately. Remember that the exemptions in para. 1 for replacements are for such replacements anywhere, including bathrooms, kitchens, etc. The exemptions in 2(c) are subject to the qualifying conditions set out in 2(a) & (b).

Cable and lighting attached to the walls of your house - not notifiable........unless adding a new circuit to CU.

And that highlights more interpretation issues. Most of the guidance notes (official and otherwise) seem to suggest that an exterior light fitting added on the outside wall of the house and wired back to an existing lighting circuit is not notifiable. I would argue that even if that was the intent (originally or later after umpteen amendments), then it's not really what the regulations actually say.

2(c) exempts the addition of lights subject to the clause in 2(b) that it "does not involve work on a special installation." Para. 4 says that a special installation means "an outdoor lighting or electric power installation." Isn't an exterior light mounted externally on the wall of a house an outdoor lighting installation? That would make it notifiable.

 

[Paul_C]

Unless the world really has gone mad.

This is government legislation we're talking about. It's often completely mad.

That they are not does not make it reasonable to disregard whatever way is defined in order to make things fit what you think they should be.

BAS & I might disagree on what the regulations actually mean, but on that point I agree. It's not for us to try and second-guess what the legislature intended the regulations to say and to apply them accordingly. We can go only on what the regulations actually do say. Whether the results are logical and consistent from any sort of technical point of view is entirely different matter, and it's not hard to find many examples where "common sense" contradicts the letter of the legislation.

Thinking about the particular case at hand, here's another comparison to consider surrounding that definition of what "an outdoor lighting or electric power installation" is supposed to include for the purposes of schedule 4.

As I mentioned above, my initial reaction in the absence of anything explicitly saying otherwise is to interpret that as meaning any part of an electrical installation which is outdoors (hence the outside light on the exterior wall of the house comment earlier).

So what about the situation where the easiest route to extend a circuit from one room of a house to another room is to route the cable through an external wall, along the outside of the house, then back inside again, using conduit or whatever other method is deemed suitable? Clearly that run of cable is outdoors, but is it part of an "outdoor electric power installation" as such? Are we talking about only the location where power is actually utilized, or does it also include apparatus intended merely to convey power from one point to another? (Hence my question earlier about a switch at the front gate: Obviously it's electrical apparatus, but it's not lighting or other equipment intended to use electrical power.)

If any part of the installation being outside makes that part an "outdoor electric power installation" for the purposes of schedule 4, then that circuit extension run along the outside wall of the house would be notifiable.

To be logical and consistent, if that intra-house extension run on the outside of the wall is deemed not to be notifiable because it's not actually supplying any lighting or other utilization equipment located outdoors, then BAS' assertion that the underground cable to the garage in the case at hand is not notifiable in itself must also be correct, since it's the same scenario - Only the cable itself is outdoors.

So how many people who think that the underground cable to the garage is notifiable will agree that the intra-house extension run along the outside wall is also notifiable?

 

[JohnW2]

.... here's another comparison to consider surrounding that definition of what "an outdoor lighting or electric power installation" is supposed to include for the purposes of schedule 4.

This surely illustrates the point. Despite all the assertions flying around as to 'what the word of the law says', in the absence of an explicit definition of "an outdoor lighting or electrical power installation" the 'word of the law' is not something which is clear to 'anyone who can read' but, in fact, is subject to individual interpretation (aka guesswork).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

You can't have thought too deeply, then. I would suggest that "an outdoor electric power installation" is anything but 'straightforward and clear'. Many (electrically) 'lay' people, maybe including lawyers and judges, would probably imagine that 'an installation' was something much more grand or involved than a mere socket or light fitting.

Actually I think that lawyers and judges would be finely attuned to issues of definitions.

Exactly. Lawyers and judges would look to the legislation for a definition and, when they found one was not there, would conclude that the question of what was included in "an outdoor electrical power installation" could only be determined by a court - part of whose role is to provide interpretations of less-than-explicit legislation.

For people here to assert on the basis of (their interpretation of the meaning of) undefined words and phrases in legislation is, I would suggest, foolish.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[MichaelTT]

once again - Thank you for all of your input.

I think providing it doesn't affect the buildings insurance - I will go ahead with the installation.

They are not looking to sell any time soon anyway so this probably won't really be a problem (in terms of notification)

I will be contacting the local building control to hear there take on the matter - and will relay information that everyone has provided!