Wiring into an external garage one meter from house?

[MichaelTT]

Electrifying - Thank you for your research.

What does this mean for this installation?

 

[Paul_C]

This comes back to another case of how the wording in Schedule 4 is open to a certain amount of interpretation.

2. Work which—

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location;

(b) does not involve work on a special installation; and

(c) consists of—

(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit, or

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit.

Clearly the proposed work meets the requirements of 2(a) & 2(c), but what about 2(b)?

Edited down to the salient part:

"special installation” means {.....} an outdoor lighting or electric power installation {.....}

Is the underground cable part of "an outdoor electric power installation" or not? I would say it is.

 

[MichaelTT]

This is where the confusion lies as far as I can see. I presume this is the viewpoint of the electrician I spoke with earlier when he stated that if it were attached, it wouldn't be notifiable (as it could run directly from the house internal wall into the garage).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Wind your neck in, BAS, and admit you are wrong this time.

I'm not.

Garden power and lighting are special installations

This is in a garage, not a garden.

- this includes cables crossing 'gardens', for want of a better word.

No it does not, any more than the DNO cable being under the pavement makes it highway equipment or street furniture.



In my house, this is the route that the cables take for the lighting upstairs aand in the loft:

From the meter under the stairs into the floor void on the landing.

Then along under the landing floor, under the bathroom floor, up through a cupboard in the bathroom (used to contain the HWC) into the loft, and then to each lighting point for the landing, bedrooms, bath, WC & loft.

So if I add a light in a bedroom, is it notifiable because the cable runs under the bathroom floor?

I think not.

Regardless of the distance, to get to a detached garage, you are crossing the 'garden' - so it's notifiable.

No it isn't, and unless you can show me where Schedule 4 agrees with you then you are clearly wrong.

If I take any notice of you, I might as well throw 'Doc P' in the bin, along with my 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regs' - because it says it in there, as well.

The LAW does not agree with what you say, you are WRONG.

Approved Document P is NOT THE LAW - it actually says so in it.

The EGTTBR is also not the law. And does it actually say what you claim?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There is also apparrantly a point outside that the electricians have placed a blank face over - is this so that you can attatch an IP rated outside socket if you wanted to? or can I use this as the starting point for the SWA?

No idea what it is.

But if you install a socket that would be notifiable - it would clearly be an outside power installation.

This is a bit of a grey area as I've contacted 3 local electricians who are saying different things...

It is not grey at all to anybody who bothers to read what the law actually says.

Unfortunately, as is confirmed by a number of people posting here, some electricians are either unable or unwilling to read.

If it is notifiable - then what is the process for this? I complete the work, and is it building control i notify? Do we have to pay an electrician to come and test/inspect?

You notify them in advance, and pay the fee. Different councils have different approaches to how they handle any inspection & testing.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Taken from 'Notifiable electrical work descriptors
Guidance for CPS registrants' - Published by the LABC :-

So another document which is not the law.

Fond of those, aren't you.

This guide has been prepared as a result of feedback from Competent Persons Scheme Operators and enterprises that are registered with the scheme operators. The aim of the guide is to simplify the choice of notifiable works as well as enabling all electrical scheme operators to give a consistent message to reduce confusion in the industry.

So not to clear up any inaccuracies and misconceptions, just to simplify matters for the hard-of-thinking.

Priceless.

This is to be used when installing fixed electrical equipment such as an external socket-outlet, garden lighting or supply to an outbuilding.

Do you really not care that that bears no relation to what the Building Regulations actually say? That the part you highlighted is pure fabrication?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This comes back to another case of how the wording in Schedule 4 is open to a certain amount of interpretation.

2. Work which—

(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location;

(b) does not involve work on a special installation; and

(c) consists of—

(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit, or

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit.

Clearly the proposed work meets the requirements of 2(a) & 2(c), but what about 2(b)?

Edited down to the salient part:

"special installation” means {.....} an outdoor lighting or electric power installation {.....}

Is the underground cable part of "an outdoor electric power installation" or not? I would say it is.

I would like to add an extra socket [in the garage] nearer to the door for the mower / hoovering the car, am I allowed to do this and if so would it be a spur or an extension into the back of the current socket.

Again, adding a socket to an existing circuit is exempt from notification*. Whether your addition would be classed as a spur or not (by the Wiring Regs. definition of the term) would depend upon whether the existing socket is part of a ring or not.


* Subject to these not being in certain locations, none of which would apply to your garage.

The full list of exempt works can be seen here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/schedule/4/made[/QUOTE]

 

[Electrifying]

The EGTTBR endorses approved document P :-

Pg 22

a Notifiable jobs include new circuits back to the consumer unit, and extensions to circuits in kitchens and special locations (bathrooms etc) and associated with special installations (garden lighting and power installations etc.)

g Outdoor lighting and power installations are special installations. Any new work in, for example, the garden or that involves crossing the garden, is notifiable.

So, we have Approved Document P - Approved and Issued by the Secretary of State and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.

We have the Electricians Guide to the Building Regs - from the good old engineers at the IEE.

And we have the 'Notifiable electrical work descriptors
Guidance for CPS registrants' - Published by the LABC.

All telling us it's NOTIFIABLE!

THEN.........We have the 'Ban-All-Sheds' interpretation of Schedule 4 telling us it's not notifiable.

I think I know which way I'm going.


POLL, Anyone???

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Tip to the OP, listen to the electricians, not someone who isn't.

Michael - it's entirely up to you.

If you want to hand over hundreds of pounds to your council because you want to listen to people who cannot or will not read what the law says, or who want to tell you things which are not what the law says because they think it would be simpler for you to understand than the truth then go ahead.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

All telling us it's NOTIFIABLE!

And all wrong.

THEN.........We have the 'Ban-All-Sheds' interpretation of Schedule 4 telling us it's not notifiable.

It's not an interpretation - it's simple English.

A socket in a garage is not an outdoor power installation because inside the garage is not outdoors.

Lights in a garage are not an outdoor lighting installation because inside the garage is not outdoors.

If you took on a job, and the customer said "please put some garden lighting and outdoor power sockets in for me - I trust you to choose where and what - I can't be here", and you put them in his garage, do you really think he'd be happy that you had done what he asked?

I think I know which way I'm going.

And so do I - the way of all the other idiots.

 

[JohnW2]

...All telling us it's NOTIFIABLE!
THEN.........We have the 'Ban-All-Sheds' interpretation of Schedule 4 telling us it's not notifiable.
I think I know which way I'm going. POLL, Anyone???

Interesting. Common sense, what one imagines was probably the intent of those who (very badly) wrote the legislation, and all those other documents you mention indicate that outdoor wiring, particularly underground outdoor wiring, is, or ought to be, notifiable - and I imagine that a high proportion of electricians would feel that it should be notified.

On the other hand, it is hard to argue with BAS's statements about 'the actual words of the law'. However, I regard this as another case of this particular bit of law being very badly written (so as not to correctly reflect the intent of those who wrote it), not an indication that BAS is being sensible.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I imagine that a high proportion of electricians would feel that it should be notified.

Electricians feeling that something should be so doesn't make it so.

On the other hand, it is hard to argue with BAS's statements about 'the actual words of the law'.

Not to some here.

Hard to argue successfully, that I will grant you

However, I regard this as another case of this particular bit of law being very badly written

"“special installation” means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994"

It seems perfectly straightforward and clear to me.

But then I'm not approaching it with the mindset that it ought to say something else, or that it needs to be simplified because otherwise it would be too hard to understand.

(so as not to correctly reflect the intent of those who wrote it), not an indication that BAS is being sensible.

The problem with wanting to consider the intent of those who wrote it is that Approved Document P has said what it does about "outdoor" installations since 2006.

And in that time the Building Regulations have been revised 10 times, and in 4 of those there were changes made to Schedule 2B/Schedule 4.

You do start to question who knows best what their intent was - others who think it should have been what they think, or who want it to be simplified, or they themselves who had 10 opportunities to clarify that an "outdoor lighting or electric power installation" did include supplies to detached outbuildings, or meant cables crossing a garden etc, but chose not to take a single one.

 

[Electrifying]

On the other hand, it is hard to argue with BAS's statements about 'the actual words of the law'. However, I regard this as another case of this particular bit of law being very badly written (so as not to correctly reflect the intent of those who wrote it), not an indication that BAS is being sensible.

Kind Regards, John.

Not being funny, John, but if you want to take the actual words of the law.....

Why, in Scedule 4, Part 1, does it state that:

1. Work consisting of—

(a)replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does not include the provision of—.

(i)any new fixed cabling

So, you can only replace a socket outlet, without notification, as long as it doesn't include any 'new fixed cabling'.

Yet BAS interprets that you can run a new cable to a detached garage and supply power to new sockets and lighting, without notification!

The mind boggles.

If you take 1 a (i) as 'LAW', then 2 c (i) & (ii) only covers 'adding' sockets/light fittings to a circuit.........it doesn't mention extending circuits with new fixed wiring, does it???

Adding isn't extending.
And why would they allow you to provide new fixed cabling in one bit, and not the other??

Actual words of the LAW, remember.

 

[MichaelTT]

From what I have seen, no where does it seem it to state that the sockets/lighting in a garage
Is notifiable or the cables to supply this power. It does state that special locations include
gardens so therefore they need to state what constitues a garden area (is this any area
surrounding the main dwelling that is external?) The garage itself as BAS as said, it isn't
an outside area unless they class any where outside of the main dwelling as an outside area, in which
Case that doesn't make sense at all.

Again I really appreciate all of your input to all who have helped!

 

[Electrifying]

From what I have seen, no where does it seem it to state that the sockets/lighting in a garage
Is notifiable or the cables to supply this power. It does state that special locations include
gardens so therefore they need to state what constitues a garden area (is this any area
surrounding the main dwelling that is external?) The garage itself as BAS as said, it isn't
an outside area unless they class any where outside of the main dwelling as an outside area, in which
Case that doesn't make sense at all.

Again I really appreciate all of your input to all who have helped!

Michael, take it from me, it's really quite simple.

Ignore anyones 'interpretations' of what the laws is or isn't saying.......I proved in my last post just how 'plain' the english is.

It goes like this:

Cable and lighting attached to the walls of your house - not notifiable........unless adding a new circuit to CU.

Exterior socket outlet attached to walls of your house - notifiable........because once plugged in, cable can be run accross the garden.

Any other fixed electric cable coming out of your house and going across the garden to WHEREVER.........shed, garage, summer house, pond pump, water feature, ornamental lampost, old red phonebox - NOTIFIABLE.