woodburning stove problem

[Norcon]

Then the manuals wrong.

The tappings for the heat leak rad should be below the cylinder tappings.
Not at the same level as in your set up.

And the heat leak rad should be in a living space, not a cold loft where the rads output will multiply.
You may also get parisitic gravity circulation to the rad when the cylinder is heated via the immersion or the gas boiler.
(probably not yours as the immersion looks high up and no boiler seems to be connected)

I assume hi-lo stats are fitted and set up correctly!
Has the circulator thats sitting vertical been rectified?

 

[pioner]

Hi norcon, I have sent you a manufactures layout drawing for the stove
and surely a radiator in my loft would be a good thing in winter to keep away cold and any freezing of pipes, as it is insulated from the joists.

Regads
pioner

 

[Norcon]

Most of the MI's show it that way. Its wrong IMO! Others may disagree.
The heat leak rad should be T'd off the horizontal f&r thus giving priority to the HW.

They only show one thermostat controlling the pump which is a high limit stat. This is not the best method and will result in cold glugs of water being circulated through the stove from the CH system reducing its efficiency.

Take a look here to see how it is done...........
http://tiny.cc/jjIuX

A heat leak radiator in that position will create a pheneomenal and unnecessary heat loss into the attic.
We had -12 here at the last big freeze. I left a 60 watt light bulb on as I always do when its in the minuses. It did the job.

 

[pioner]

Hi norcon,
I have printed out and read the fitting of the stove pipe work you have sent me, and it is totaly different, to my instruction book, my stove is fitted on the domestic side with 25mm pipe which then go's through the ceiling, as in my picture, connected to the cylinder, then into the expansion rad, and up to the overflow.

On the heating side, all the pipe work from the stove is in 22mm which the return is connected via the pump to the existing 22mm return pipe,with a tee.

The flow pipe, again 22mm from the stove, go's though the ceiling, as shown in my picture, and is connected approx: two feet lower down, with a tee, your drawing shows all the pipes in 25mm and the heating & domestic connected together at the boiler, I am wondering if the two different pipes could be connected together, as near to the boiler as possible going up the outside of my chimney breast, if not it would be too big of a job to take the boiler out to get at the rear to reconnect any pipe work, and I don't know if the fitter would do it for me,

If all this is possible, where would I put the expansion rad, OR do I really need one? Then after all this extra work, are you saying that my boiler would heat the bungalow on it's own without any assistance from the gas boiler.?

Regards
pioner

 

[Norcon]

The flow pipe, again 22mm from the stove, go's though the ceiling, as shown in my picture, and is connected approx: two feet lower down, with a tee,

Are you saying the two 22mm pipes disappearing into the ceiling don't connect to the stove?

I would have T'd 22mm off the 28mm at loft level and fitted an injector T staying with a two pipe configuration at the boiler.
Then as it will probably be difficult to re-arrange the heat leak rad, fit an AVTA (available from DPS) cooling valve to the heat leak rad circuit.
Then fit a Hi-lo stat wiring configuration.

There's no gurantee it will heat your bungalow but these steps will be a big help.

 

[pioner]

Hi norcon,
All the four pipes are connected to the rear of the stove, a 25mm pipe,( the flow ) is at the top corner of the stove, and the return 25mm pipe, ( the return ) is connected at the opposite corner at the bottom. this is for the domestic side to the cylinder, and the gravity radiator,

The two 22mm pipes, heating ( flow and return,) are connected, in the opposite corners of the stove, the engineer who fitted the stove for me is out of commision at the moment due to an operation, but he say's he will come to see me in the near future, but he seems to suggest that he has fitted everything as it should be, so I could have struggle on my hands, but I don't expect him to do it for nothing, I would pay him, as he is self employed, BUT, I would like it to work after he had done, what I had suggested to him. hope this clears everything up as far as connections

I was going to try to fit the stove myself, but I would to have to have building regs coming round, as I am not HETAS reg: so the shop that I bought the stove from recommended these guy's, but I fixed the central heating in the bungalow myself years ago, long before all this parrafanalia about certificates. I have been in the building trade for over sixty years, and had my own company, but at 77yrs old, I find it difficult to bend up and down. so you see that is why I have to pay someone to do it for me.and it greeves me, (it is no joke getting old.)

 

[Norcon]

Just make sure he fits the HI-LO stat configuration properly and corrects the wrongly fitted pump.
Page 19 on the Woodwarm link I posted earlier shows this clearly and how it is done.

From your Stoves Installation Instructions.......

It is also essential that the return water temperature
remains in excess of 45 degrees centigrade
(Celsius). The gravity return should be fitted with a
thermostat, which will activate a cut-out on the
radiator circulating pump,

He'll struggle with the concept of an AVTA valve on the heat leak rad.
You could shut the heat leak rad off if he has left valves on it and see how the system performs whilst monitoring the flow temperature to the HW cylinder.

Also check that no backflows are occuring through your gas boiler when the stove pump is running! Sometimes non return valves are needed.
You can check this when the gas boiler has been off and is cold and the stove lit and stove pump operating by just holding the flow pipe from the gas boiler and seeing if it is getting warm.

This is an AVTA valve shown here with the capilliary tube gland for immersion connection into a T piece using 28mm compression.
This one cost me £80 direct from Danfoss through a company I used to work for. DPS also supply them.
There very reliable.

 

[pioner]

Hi norcon,
the pump is fitted on the return heating pipe, with a thermostat fitted on the gravity return pipe to the stove and is set at 40 Deg C, bringing the pump on( I have been thinking,) I really don't need the gravity heating pipes from the stove to my hot water cylinder, as we use the emersion heater ALL the time to heat ALL our hot water. and alway's have done for the last five years, with no problem. and I am happy with that, SO, would it be feasible to also connect the gravity pipes to my heating pipes, in the roof space, as there is very little room to connect the pipes below the ceiling, ( 1 ) that should do away with the gravity radiator ? as I must be losing 40% of my heat in the roof space as you rightly commented on, that is what got me thinking about connecting the two together and ( 2 ) all the heat is going into the heating side, can you possibly see any problems with that, and how would it effect any venting and the pump overflowing when it kicks in.

Kind Regards
pioner

 

[sambotc]

Thought I may jump in on this one. Can you just clarify: Does the water boil in the stove when trying to heat the radiators or only at the time you installer was present? (first post)

Does the wood burner heat the cylinder without the immersion on to a good temp?

Heat leak radiator has been installed in accorndance with HETAS. Not aware of any thermostatic valve being allowed on the heat leak radiator, will check in the manuals now. HETAS do not recommend teeing off the horizontals due to the risk of air locks. You could still use the heat from the heat leak by installing it in a room of your choice (ideally a bathroom for towel heating or similar) The flow would have to come down through the ceiling, the return would have to connect back in near the boiler though on that level (IE cant'ds go back up into roof space and join current return position)

You say 25mm tube being used on the gravity H/W circ's, I presume you mean 28mm/ 1 inch?

EDIT: Just looked at your photo's. Is the pump still installed in that position? (IE pointing upwards?) Did the installer vent the pump when he went up?

High limit stat should be on the flow and set at 85oC
Sam

 

[pioner]

Hi sambotc
No, the water do's not boil while trying to heat the radiators, that only happened when the installer came round and kept the pump turned off, it was like a kettle,for a few moments until he turned the pump on, then most of the radiators got really hot, until it had all settled down, then the rads cooled to from some hot and the further away from the boiler the cooler they got, and you are right, I do mean 28mm pipe, I think I must have been having a senior moment when I said 25mm, to be honest I have never tried to heat the cylinder by the stove alone, but I will say the two 28mm pipes get VERY hot, a lot quicker than the two 22mm pipes, that feed my radiators.
There is no thermostatic valve on the heat leak radiator, the valve is fitted on the return pipe from my cylinder back to the stove.
Regards
pioner

 

[pioner]

HI sambotc
I wish to Clarify my last contact, I stated a "thermostatic valve" on the return I meant a thermostat, (electic ) to switch the pump,on
sorry for any confusion.
pioner

 

[sambotc]

Hi pioner,

What speed is the pump set on?

Assuming the heating pipes are connected to the boiler correctly, does the hot water get very hot?

Have you any way of measuring the temperature of the hot water or pipes?

It is possible to add a motorised valve to the hot water cylinder to enable the heating to be on whilst not heating the cylinder.

Also can you confirm if the pump is still fitted in the position shown in your photo ie vent facing upwards?

Sam

 

[sambotc]

Also a few more questions I need to ask.

Do all of your radiators get at least warm when the stove is on?

How hot are the nearer radiators?

Do they have thermostatic valves fitted?

Sam

 

[pioner]

Hi sambotc
THESE ARE THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS.
(1) the pump is set on No three the highest one. and is fitted at an angle of about 45deg;.

(2) Domestic h/w gets VERY hot, well over 130f,only checked with a tube thermometer, and Heated by Emersion only, ( Never tried to heat with Boiler only), But I CAN say that the two 28mm pipes going to the cylinder,from the stove get VERY HOT, you cannot touch them after a while, that is why I would like to use this heat to go into the heating side.

I do not have any other means of testing the pipes

The only radiators that get hot, are the three in the same room as the stove, ( which to me, is defeating the object ) as I was thinking I would have been able to turn THEM OFF, the rest get warmish but the further away from the stove the cooler they get, from cool to coolish,but NOT warm enough to make any difference in cold weather, in fact USELESS.

There is plenty of room to fit Motorised Valve

only two, out of my twelve rads have thermostatic valves,

hope I have answered your queries

regards pioner

 

[sambotc]

Firstly, try turning the pump speed down to number 2. It may not be helping up that high as it won't be giving the water enough time in the boiler to heat up.

Secondly, has any attempt been made to balance the system?

The problem you may have is that because the stove and gas boiler connect at differant part's of the heating system, balancing 1 may effect the other.

For a minute though, we should concentrate on getting the stove to work effectively and deal with any other problems as and when?

Have you turned the 3 radiators in the lounge off completely to see if others get hot/warmer than with them open?

I'm trying to figure out wether r not reverse circulation could be part of the problem.

Can you trace pipework to confirm the flow off the stove is the connected to the flow on the gas boiler, rather than the return?

After this, fire the gas boiler and check which pipe get's hot on the lounge radiators first. Once you know this, do the same with the stove and verify if it is circulating in the same direction.

Sam