woodburning stove problem

[pioner]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can shed some light on my woodburning stove problem, I live in a large detached bungalow, which has a very good heating system with an 80,000btu gas boiler, but the price of gas, got me thinking about an alternative, which I went for a boiler that is supposed to heat nineteen radiators, there is only twelve in my property so I thought that will do, ( what will do a lot, will do a little) so It was fitted in the main lounge FEB: 2009 which by the way has three radiators in it, then the stove, which acts as a fourth radiator when the gas is on,so I thought that I would be able to turn them off, but over the last few months of cold weather, I have been using my gas boiler as the stove only heats the radiators in the lounge and the further away the rads, the cooler they get,I have contacted the manufacturer, who say's it sounds like I am not loading the fire properly, ( what rubbish) I have tried "LOGS" "HEATLOGS" "anthracite" "COAL" all which are dearer than gas, which is beating the object on saving, so I contacted the engineer who fitted the stove to my existing system,he came round, asked me to get a good fire, he had been in the attic before hand then I could hear the water boiling in the stove, and the overflow started to run,I told him he said it was OK, then what seemed to be a long time, as I was worried about the water comming from the overflow, he turned on the pump, after a few minutes most of the rads got very hot, so he left thinking he had cured the problem, but in half an hour of him leaving, all the rads went cool again, even with a roaring fire, Now I have spent a few thousand pounds on this prodject to give up now but it is very disappointing and frustrating, can anyone help me PLEASE, all I want is for the stove to do it's job, and by the way there are five settings on my gas boiler, but I only need to use the second setting to heat the bungalow.


Regards
pioner

 

[lifesagasman]

something's not right, is it? if you have a 'roaring fire' and 3 warmish rads in a bungalow lounge you should be roasting. if i have a good fire in my stove i have to open the door to let the heat escape upstairs.
as for the wet side, only a portion of the fire's heat goes to water and the effectiveness of the heat exchanger varies wildly depending on the set-up you have and the actual output of the stove in KW terms. a 12KW stove running at, say, 6KW, may only be putting 2 to 3 KW to water. not much use for 12 rads

 

[pioner]

something's not right, is it? if you have a 'roaring fire' and 3 warmish rads in a bungalow lounge you should be roasting. if i have a good fire in my stove i have to open the door to let the heat escape upstairs.
as for the wet side, only a portion of the fire's heat goes to water and the effectiveness of the heat exchanger varies wildly depending on the set-up you have and the actual output of the stove in KW terms. a 12KW stove running at, say, 6KW, may only be putting 2 to 3 KW to water. not much use for 12 rads

To lifesagasman,
from Pioner
thank you for your responce, my stove tech; data is max output to room 4.5 (KW) BTU's 15,390
max output to water (KW) 24 BTU's 82,000

This is all double dutch to me do you mean it can be connected wrong

 

[lifesagasman]

something doesn't add up. if you've got up to 24KW available and it only warms 3 or so rads the maths don't work. around 10KW is a ball-park figure for heating and hot water for an average 3-bed house with a stove. i think you need to speak with the installer

 

[Nige F]

Can you give us a link to the make/model of the stove

 

[tamz]

Is it one of these stoves you have?

http://www.stratfordboilerstoves.co.uk/

The 82000 btu output is based on burning anthracite and only then with the fire fully loaded and roaring with all thermostats open. If you burn wood you would be lucky to get anywhere near half that and even then only for a short period of time. (calorific value of seasoned wood is around half that of anthracite). Your output will probably average nearer 20 - 25000 btu with wood.
Solid fuel manufacturers have always stretched the figures for outputs. While they are achievable, it is only when burning in ideal conditions with the right type of fuel.

That said, your main problem is with how the stove has been tied in to the existing system. Even with a low output all the rads should heat, though not very well.
When he was up in the loft fiddling about while the fire was roaring he was letting the stove boil to push an air lock so this indicates there is a problem with the way it is piped.

Unfortunately a lot of HETAS guys are not the brightest buttons in the box when it comes to pipework. Your stove on its own will never heat the whole house adequately in the winter and should be tied in to supplement the existing system.

See if you can find someone who knows what they are doing (which is quite hard these days)

Btw What made you think solid fuel would be cheaper than gas? Unless you have easy access to free wood it won't be. Looks and feels a lot nicer though

 

[pioner]

Hi Tams, thank you for your interest, first let me say I do get all my wood free through a friend who is a tree surgeon, I have a stock at the moment of about twelve ton, with two more trees comming next week, I know they will not be ready to burn for at least twelve months, so I split them and stack them under a sheet on pallets, but at the moment I have a couple of ton that is ready to burn,which I started to get long before the stove was fitted, as I waited over six months for delivery of the stove, and to be honest, I now wish that I had bought a normal stove just for the lounge without the heating boiler, you are right, it is a STRATFORD TF90B.would it matter where the connection to the existing heating pipes has been made? the stove is in the chimney breast in the lounge which I had to make wider, and to make room for the connections to the boiler the pipes goes up the outside of the breast into the attic to feed the cylinder, and a radiator for any expansion,the pump is just above where the pipes break through the ceiling and is connected to the existing heating system,at that point could any of connections be too close, to the boiler? I understand the pump should be as close as possible to the boiler on the return side,but what about the feed side. (about the engineer he did nothing in the attic only check the stat, as I was with him,) it is like a ballroom up there, large enough to have two big rooms if I wanted, anyway this is not getting my stove working, before any logs are burned I have a moister meter and check that they are 20/25as recommended. thank again.for you advice

 

[htgeng]

snipped

how is it connected to the heating system/gas boiler? There could be something called a dunsley neutraliser if you don't have a thermal store.

Agreed that its not just the case of piping it into an existing system and hoping for the best. You have a lot of variables to consider. For example there should be a means to prevent colder return water cooling the fire too much. This can be done with a loading valve such as a laddomat.

If you go on the Navitron forum there are lot of knowledgeable people with setups such as yours. I recall there being someone who had a cr*p system performance with a new install and had to make some changes to the plumbing to make it work.

Most of us will be somewhat jealous that you have free fuel so you should get it working 100% to make the most of it.

 

[tamz]

Without knowing how your existing systems are piped it is impossible to advise.

BUT It would be better connected through one of these. Check out the drawings and compare it to what you have.

http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/linkupsys.htm

Here is another bit of reading.

http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/pdfs/link_up.pdf

 

[pioner]

Hi, tamz/htgeng, you asked about the pipe work, on my system, well when I bought this bungalow 20yrs ago, there was gas central heating in, but all the piping was 10mm and the rads where old, so over a period of time I started to replace the pipes, and rads with the main runs 22mm and the drops in 15mm, the boiler,a 60,000btu at that time, had not been in very long so it was used for the next 15yrs, after which I built a garage onto the end of the bungalow I wanted to have radiators in the garage so I bought a new 80,000btu combi boiler and fitted that in the garage, and for the last 5yrs we have had a very good heating system on gas, but as I said earlier with gas prices as they are I was looking for an alternative so that I could use either,( but not together,) when the stove was fitted, the cold water feed to my comby was cut off, but the two heating pipes where connected with full bore valves, meaning the gas boiler gets it's water from my header tank which is 10ft of head to the boiler, and it works perfect, but instead of three rads in my back lounge the stove heats up as well making four, all my rads are double the up to date ones. I am very lucky getting the logs for free, but they are no use to me if I cannot use them, anyway many thanks for your help and concern

Cheers Pioner

 

[tamz]

Do the main runs cross the attic?
If they do it will be easy to alter the pipes and connect through a neutraliser.
This is the easiest way to guarantee the system will work as it should. Just follow their diagrams for piping and wiring.
You will need to interconnect the existing boiler wiring because on its own the stove will never heat the house fully on its own in winter.

 

[pioner]

Hi tamz,
I have sent some pictures of the boiler in full fire, it took me two hrs to sort out how to get the pictures where I wanted them, and then I have doubled up on one of them, there is a delete but it wont go off,

Let me say, I would be happy if all my radiators got reasonably hot, (and not just round the boiler area) and if, as you say, the stove would not heat my property fully, then I would use the gas system ONLY in very cold spells as we are doing at the moment, and light the stove for appearance only and keep the fire low, as it is very cosey. as I do not fancy connecting the two systems together

As you will see in the picture, the pump comes from the stoves return below, and is connected into the return pipe, (not shown connected in the picture) The lower pipe had an elbow fitted and is connected about two feet lower down the picture into the flow pipe, the other two 25mm pipes go the to the cylinder for the domestic H/W, ( which we use the immersion heater all the time anyway) as I find the electric side very cheap. so I am not bothered about that, from where you see the pump, going up the picture it would be about 50 feet to my gas boiler, and from the pump going down the picture will be another 30 feet, and the gas system is wonderful, and ALL my radiators get hot, and only on the second setting,

so why is only my lounge getting most of the heat, could it be the pump not big enough? OR, could the pipes be connect in the wrong place.

cheers
pioner

 

[pioner]

Hi, Everyone, from pioner
I have spent most of Saturday trying different way's to get my radiators hot, by the stove only, by turning some rads off, and on, and checking the others, and my final conclusion, is what some of you have told me, (THAT THE STOVE ONLY ) will NOT heat my bungalow, on it's own, and that it would need my gas running parallel with it, BUT, that was not what I was expecting it to do according to the manufacturers advert, this stove should heat 19 rads "VERY MISLEADING", I cannot blame anyone for my "boob" as I picked the boiler myself, What I will say is, I have been burning anthracite coal for a couple of hours, but when it died down leaving a layer of hot coals, I loaded the boiler with wood and the fire was really hot and nice to look at I would say it was as hot as anthracite on it's own. Anyway, again Thank you for all your advice and information.

Regards
pioner

 

[Norcon]

The heat leak rad is in the wrong place and should not be that high. Should certainly not be in the loft wasting heat unless a thermostatic control device is fitted.

 

[pioner]

Hi norcon, thank you for your interest.
The diagrams in the manufactures manual, shows the gravity radiator near to the cylinder as an escape for any heat that the cylinder cannot take, and, if you will, an escape route of heat before the overflow to the tank, the cylinder is IN the attic space, so, where, and at what hight would you suggest the radiator,should go. this is only for the domestic H/W, (I am not bothered about the hot water,) as I alway's use my immersion heater anyway for H/W, It is the heating side that the boiler doe's not seem to be able to cope with, I am open to any suggestions.

Regards
pioner