Would this be OK ?

[bigzed]

Just trying to figure out what would be best for my Kitchen Extractor, ( presently wired without an FCU if you remember my previous post ).

I've traced the wiring and what I found was that the Kitchen Ring goes in and out of the double socket for the Fridge and Freezer. From this socket, there is a spur cct to a single socket that the kettle is plugged into, then another cable from this single socket directly into the fan.

What I propose to do is chase another cable into the wall up to the double socket so I can feed the F/F separately off the new CU, avoiding the RCD.

Can I choc-block the existing Ring in the back of the socket ( so I can feed the single socket & the extractor ( via an FCU I'm gonna fit ) as a spur off the Ring, or is this just totally a bad idea ? I was thinking along the lines of crimping the wiring but then realised that there would be three cores into one crimp, which I don't like the idea of whether it is legal or not.

The working space I've got available to me is limited, so I want to avoid chasing the wall as much as is possible. Although, I will do it if I have no other option of course.

Thanks as usual guys

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's going to be a bit crowded in that back box, with 4 cables, a twin socket and a strip of choc-block in there.

And then of course you'll need to have a durable warning notice permanently fixed where anybody taking the socket off will see it, to warn them that they need to isolate 2 circuits to make it safe.....

 

[plugwash]

As BAS says the problem is unless you use the "screwless flat plate style sockets" that have a seperate main body and front plate there is nowhere to fix the warning notice that is both hidden in normal usage and yet still visible before exposing the connection. It will also be insanely crowded in that backbox.

can you not leave the existing socket where it is and fit a new non-rcd socket nearby (appropriately labeled of course) for the fridge/freezer?

 

[bigzed]

It's going to be a bit crowded in that back box, with 4 cables, a twin socket and a strip of choc-block in there. And then of course you'll need to have a durable warning notice permanently fixed where anybody taking the socket off will see it, to warn them that they need to isolate 2 circuits to make it safe.....

Thanks BAS but it appears that I need a new Cable Tracer coz I didn't pick-up on the correct cable route as you will see below :-

You know what women are like, you move summat, they see the accumulated dust etc and decide that they want to have a quick clean round.

So, I had to pull the fridge out as well for our lass to have a clean and.....there's an FCU, beneath the worktop, with no cable coming out of it. I turned it off, guess what ? the fan doesn't work

So it appears that the fan is powered through an fcu after all but it's under the worktop, the fan feed is chased into the wall, ( albeit T&E cable ) the fcu is fed from the single socket, which in turn is a spur off the kitchen ring !!! God knows what whoever did it this way was on at the time So, how many regulations are being circumvented here now ?

Anyway, I've had a re-think about a solution for the F/F wiring. Would it be OK to choc-block the existing wiring in the old Double Socket, remove the socket and fit a blanking plate ( with whatever labelling is required ) and I'll just install a brand new double socket off it's own 20A MCB in the CU for the F/F ? Seeing as the kitchen ring is also going to be off the RCD feed of the CU and the Extractor Fan is connected via the Ring, could this cause any problems ?

Tell you what, I'm glad that I need a visit to check out the existing wiring before I start c/o the CU, coz I can see some of the tests failing at this rate, I just hope that I aren't living in a time-bomb

<edit> sorry plugwash, I was typing my reply to BAS when you made yours, so I didn't see it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Would it be OK to choc-block the existing wiring in the old Double Socket, remove the socket and fit a blanking plate ( with whatever labelling is required )

You could, or you could just leave the socket there. Whichever you do:

a) You don't need any labelling
b) You still need to sort out the spur - socket - FCU - fan problem.

Another idea would be to pull new cables through from the adjacent sockets and extend the ring to the currently spurred single socket, and to a relocated FCU for the fan. Or if you can't pull new cables, go with the choc-block behind a blanking plate, but use a 6-way strip and extend the ring.

and I'll just install a brand new double socket off it's own 20A MCB in the CU for the F/F ?

Yup.

If you've got outdoor sockets, or indoor ones which would be a great deal easier to use to take power outside than one behind appliances, then it would not reasonably be expected etc, and would therefore be OK without RCD protection.

I'd use a socket with a non-standard earth pin, and clearly label at the CU that the circuit was not RCD protected.

Seeing as the kitchen ring is also going to be off the RCD feed of the CU and the Extractor Fan is connected via the Ring, could this cause any problems ?

None at all - separate circuits.

 

[bigzed]

Another idea would be to pull new cables through from the adjacent sockets and extend the ring to the currently spurred single socket, and to a relocated FCU for the fan. Or if you can't pull new cables, go with the choc-block behind a blanking plate, but use a 6-way strip and extend the ring.

I like the idea of that BAS, it seems like the cable is actually in plastic trunking and there is some "give", so hopefully it'll re-cable.

You still need to sort out the spur - socket - FCU - fan problem.

So if I follow the above idea, I would be re-siting the fcu ABOVE the worktop, ( via the Ring Cabling ) near the fan and connecting the fan via a piece of exposed flex yes ?

If you've got outdoor sockets, or indoor ones which would be a great deal easier to use to take power outside than one behind appliances, then it would not reasonably be expected etc, and would therefore be OK without RCD protection.

I decided to follow the non-RCD route after JohnD said about the nuisance tripping possibilities where fridges and freezers are concerned

I'd use a socket with a non-standard earth pin, and clearly label at the CU that the circuit was not RCD protected.

I am going to label all the circuits at the CU ( i.e. Fridge/Freezer Socket ) and they will be using the red labels on the MK CU I've bought but you've lost me a little with the non-standard earth pin comment, could you expand on this a little please ?

Seeing as the kitchen ring is also going to be off the RCD feed of the CU and the Extractor Fan is connected via the Ring, could this cause any problems ?

None at all - separate circuits.

What I wanted to know there BAS was if the kitchen fan could cause any nuisance tripping ?

Thanks again

 

[DESL]

but you've lost me a little with the non-standard earth pin comment, could you expand on this a little please ?

The earth pin is "T" shaped in cross section and so is the socket plate earth

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So if I follow the above idea, I would be re-siting the fcu ABOVE the worktop, ( via the Ring Cabling ) near the fan and connecting the fan via a piece of exposed flex yes ?

Yes, remembering that all concealed cables must be vertically or horizontally aligned with the accessories they serve.

you've lost me a little with the non-standard earth pin comment, could you expand on this a little please ?

You can also get them with a round or D shaped earth pin.

What I wanted to know there BAS was if the kitchen fan could cause any nuisance tripping ?

No.

 

[Adam_151]

Not sure when you are planning on doing all this, but I'd imagine that it'd be a good idea to plan on installing the fridge circuit in such a way that it doesn't require RCD protection under BS7671:2008

If the CU is up against the ceiling (or the cables are trunked upto it) thats ok and, then its going to be >50mm from both floor and ceiling in the void anyway, so you just have to worry about the drop down the wall to the new outlet, if you don't want to run it in surface trunking, then bit of 20mm galv conduit, cut to length, de-burr the ends, thread the ends, coupler on each end, then just stick a bush on the end thats in the void, and bush the other end into the patress so its earthed by the cpc flylead to it

EDIT: for clarity

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Or use BS8436 cables...

 

[Adam_151]

Or use BS8436 cables...

I thought there was still much debate about whether they met the requirements, only met the requirements when protected by MCBS to BSEN60898 tyep B, didn't meet the requirements, only met teh requirements on the second sunday of the month, etc?

Anyhow the MCB thing seems rather vague, do we have a CSA and K factor for the foil screening?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I thought there was still much debate about whether they met the requirements,

BS7671 says they do.

only met the requirements when protected by MCBS to BSEN60898 tyep B

OK - so rewirables are out, but new T/E circuits after June will almost certainly need RCD protection anyway, so rewirables are out...

Anyhow the MCB thing seems rather vague,

Type B, energy class 3. i.e. most of them

16/20/32A max for 1.0mm²/1.5mm²/2.5mm² cables. i.e. most of the ones where you'd prefer not to have an RCD.

do we have a CSA and K factor for the foil screening?

No.

 

[bigzed]

Not sure when you are planning on doing all this, but I'd imagine that it'd be a good idea to plan on installing the fridge circuit in such a way that it doesn't require RCD protection under BS7671:2008

That's what I am planning to do Adam.

If the CU is up against the ceiling (or the cables are trunked upto it) thats ok and, then its going to be >50mm from both floor and ceiling in the void anyway, so you just have to worry about the drop down the wall to the new outlet, if you don't want to run it in surface trunking, then bit of 20mm galv conduit, cut to length, de-burr the ends, thread the ends, coupler on each end, then just stick a bush on the end thats in the void, and bush the other end into the patress so its earthed by the cpc flylead to it

EDIT: for clarity

Why would this work affect the CU ?

Yes, remembering that all concealed cables must be vertically or horizontally aligned with the accessories they serve.

Thanks BAS, I wasn't 100% certain about this - now I am

The earth pin is "T" shaped in cross section and so is the socket plate earth

Does this require a particular plug to be affixed to the Fridge & Freezer then, or is it just a visual difference ?

Thanks guys

 

[securespark]

OK - so rewirables are out

Of the regs? No!

 

[Click-Sure]

Does this require a particular plug to be affixed to the Fridge & Freezer then, or is it just a visual difference ?

Yes, sockets with a T shaped earth recepticle will only take the plug designed for it.