I reckon it's the age of some of these planes
Is it time to to ban vintage air shows?
- Thread starter FiremanT
- Start date
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Doing unordinary manoeuvres carries unordinary risks, loop de loops are not combat manoeuvres but just done for air shows.
Does that go for all airports too?
And no houses on road bends either.
Let's see, how many people have been killed by stunt planes compared to those who have been killed by aircraft not doing stunts in recent times? And police helicopters should not be allowed to fly over buildings such as pubs and clubs presumably?
Air shows do carry warnings on tickets that it could be a dangerous spectator event and that by purchasing the ticket you are agreeing to those terms and absolve the organisers of responsibility. In truth, if something does happen the organisers have insurance to cover any claims in such an event as this. Air shows are highly regulated and all displays, (with the exception of a straight overhead pass either singularly or in formation), must take place parallel and forward of the spectator front line. The vast majority do take place in either open countryside or over coastal sea areas.
Modern air shows are inherently safer than they were in the 60's and early 70's when they were allowed to perform over the crowds and most shows have a limit on the number of entrants allowed into the arena. This though can lead to spectators parking/viewing illegally, and trespassing on farmland, outside the show area. Some people do this anyway because they want to see the show but are not prepared to pay an entrance fee if they can see from outside. (They are usually the ones who moan when a show can't take place because of lack of finance).
Regarding the age of the planes. Yes, some of them are quite old, but they have to undergo stringent safety checks both pre-season and during the season to minimise danger. There is no such thing as something being 100% safe, especially when you have the human factor to consider also. The planes are not necessarily flown by old 'men'. There are a number of young men, (and women), who have been trained to very high standards to fly these older planes and they too undergo continuous scrutiny and assessment.
Finally, most ex-military planes are actually flown by ex military pilots who helped to re-furbish and maintain these craft as a hobby, secondary to their main job of flying.
I would suggest to those that want to ban air shows, car racing, motor bike racing, speed boat racing et al, to go out and buy as much bubble wrap, cotton wool, ear defenders, safety goggles, hard hats, steel toe-cap boots and every other conceivable safety device you can find, then lock yourself in a concrete re-enforced bunker wearing all this gear and sit there waiting to die.
Life can be dangerous, work can be dangerous, sport can be dangerous and spectating can be dangerous. Welcome to reality, have a nice day.
Modern air shows are inherently safer than they were in the 60's and early 70's when they were allowed to perform over the crowds and most shows have a limit on the number of entrants allowed into the arena. This though can lead to spectators parking/viewing illegally, and trespassing on farmland, outside the show area. Some people do this anyway because they want to see the show but are not prepared to pay an entrance fee if they can see from outside. (They are usually the ones who moan when a show can't take place because of lack of finance).
Regarding the age of the planes. Yes, some of them are quite old, but they have to undergo stringent safety checks both pre-season and during the season to minimise danger. There is no such thing as something being 100% safe, especially when you have the human factor to consider also. The planes are not necessarily flown by old 'men'. There are a number of young men, (and women), who have been trained to very high standards to fly these older planes and they too undergo continuous scrutiny and assessment.
Finally, most ex-military planes are actually flown by ex military pilots who helped to re-furbish and maintain these craft as a hobby, secondary to their main job of flying.
I would suggest to those that want to ban air shows, car racing, motor bike racing, speed boat racing et al, to go out and buy as much bubble wrap, cotton wool, ear defenders, safety goggles, hard hats, steel toe-cap boots and every other conceivable safety device you can find, then lock yourself in a concrete re-enforced bunker wearing all this gear and sit there waiting to die.
Life can be dangerous, work can be dangerous, sport can be dangerous and spectating can be dangerous. Welcome to reality, have a nice day.
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Regarding the 'Loop the loop' not being a combat manoeuvre.
You may find that to be incorrect. 'Fast jet pilots', as they are referred to in the air force, are trained in every conceivable manoeuvre that a plane is capable of performing including multiple fast barrel rolls, side slips, sudden vertical positioning, 'emergency stopping' in mid flight, (though they don't actually stop but rapidly reduce their forward air speed), and as mentioned, loop the loops.
For anyone who hasn't been to an air show, or seen one in many years, have a look on YouTube for either a Typhoon or a Eurofighter going through its paces. You will be amazed at what they can achieve.
You may find that to be incorrect. 'Fast jet pilots', as they are referred to in the air force, are trained in every conceivable manoeuvre that a plane is capable of performing including multiple fast barrel rolls, side slips, sudden vertical positioning, 'emergency stopping' in mid flight, (though they don't actually stop but rapidly reduce their forward air speed), and as mentioned, loop the loops.
For anyone who hasn't been to an air show, or seen one in many years, have a look on YouTube for either a Typhoon or a Eurofighter going through its paces. You will be amazed at what they can achieve.
There are about 500 motorcyclist and cyclist deaths annually. Those people don't need to use bikes, so for their own sake and that of their families, I proposed we ban them, and they can buy a much safer car or get the bus.
L
longdogs
Yes but try telling that to the families of the two men below. They didn't have to wait too long to die when a jet hit them just because they were sitting in traffic.
I get what you are saying but something went seriously wrong here. There have been far too many crashes at recent air shows and there needs to be some changes. Is Loop the loop really necessary for instance. In this age of elf & safety interference, how come a jet is allowed to perform acrobatics so close to houses and roads?
only the enquiry will determine the probable cause
not sure why you dismiss my comments once we reach our mid 20s things are downhill from then on
and old machinery several decades past its designed lifespan will need greater attention and repair
these machines by there nature are not refurbished and brought up to date with only old components being replaced after time limits or after noticeable wear and tear or failure
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And why should those men be any different to this one? This cyclist did not have to die.
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I am really sorry that people died so tragically but people die every day through no fault of their own.
How many people are killed on the roads each day due to the actions of someone else? How many people are killed if an airliner taking people on holiday crashes?
Banning air shows, motor bike races, sail boating on the broads etc will not bring these people back and will not stop others being killed in unforeseen circumstances.
As an avid air show attendee my family are well aware that there are dangers in me attending, but they also know if anything should happen to me at one then my opinion is that it was my time.
We are already, in my opinion, becoming a nation of namby pamby's because some organisation or another prevents us, and our children, the expression of freedom that we had as children and that can only lead to our downfall as innovators and inventors.
How many people are killed on the roads each day due to the actions of someone else? How many people are killed if an airliner taking people on holiday crashes?
Banning air shows, motor bike races, sail boating on the broads etc will not bring these people back and will not stop others being killed in unforeseen circumstances.
As an avid air show attendee my family are well aware that there are dangers in me attending, but they also know if anything should happen to me at one then my opinion is that it was my time.
We are already, in my opinion, becoming a nation of namby pamby's because some organisation or another prevents us, and our children, the expression of freedom that we had as children and that can only lead to our downfall as innovators and inventors.
So many arguments are just reducto ad absurdiam idiocy.
That people die all the time is not an argument that proposing more controls is 'health and safety gone mad!'
We don't allow cars to drive 100mph around school roads, drivers behind the wheel without an exam, motorcyclists to do wheelies down the motorway or truck drivers to drink and drive.
Why can't I drink and drive! People die and that is reality!
before you say that is an absurd argument, just remember its your own argument.
Suggesting we don't have planes pulling stunts over unsuspecting peoples heads is not 'wrapping people up in cotton wool'.
That people die all the time is not an argument that proposing more controls is 'health and safety gone mad!'
We don't allow cars to drive 100mph around school roads, drivers behind the wheel without an exam, motorcyclists to do wheelies down the motorway or truck drivers to drink and drive.
Why can't I drink and drive! People die and that is reality!
before you say that is an absurd argument, just remember its your own argument.
Suggesting we don't have planes pulling stunts over unsuspecting peoples heads is not 'wrapping people up in cotton wool'.
Quite.
The point being made is that the people who were killed were not spectators or participants.
They were taking part in their own risk-accepted pass-time.
They should not have been killed by your hobby any more than if your hobby was driving up and down residential roads at 80mph or shooting in the park.
Once we reach our twenties, we might react more slowly, but the youngsters could just as likely do the wrong thing, only faster. It's called "experience".
I'd say that if a plane (a lovingly-coddled and not-overworked one, at that) hasn't fallen out of the sky in five decades, it's PROVEN to be trustworthy. A brand-spanker? You hope it's trustworthy, but have no evidence to support that.
I looked up some research on whether a (commercial jet's - all I could find in the time) age had any correlation to its likelihood of crashing. Statistically, it doesn't (barring African airlines, but this was attributed to other factors than the plane's age, per se).
has any body on this thread actually suggested they should be banned ??
all i can see is putting things into perspective but no inclination as to any action suggested
i dont think anything should change other than simple relevant extra precautions to make things safer with as little effect as possible overall
all i can see is putting things into perspective but no inclination as to any action suggested
i dont think anything should change other than simple relevant extra precautions to make things safer with as little effect as possible overall
you dont employ just anybody to fly a jet you either own it pass the relevant qualifications and fly it
or you rely on someone else to fly your valuable asset with all the care in place
so the chances off a civilian in there 20s being the prime candidate are small
the chances will be someone with military flying off modern jets or a perhaps 40 or 50 year old civil pilot used to commercial jets so vast experiance and ability
there will also be strict requirements from the insurer and other bodies where public displays and and non private flights take place
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