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WetBimbette
Where did you work- the Chatsworth Estate???
As a tradesman that spends much of his life being thirsty i seldom hear others bragging about their rates. However if the client is a pain in the ar$e then we might add a premium to the job and brag about that.
£180 a day is NOT a lot when you factor in capital outlay, taxes, materials, lack of holiday and sick pay, cost of transport, money lost through under quoting, cost of housing, lack of pension etc.
Other than decorating I additionally provide IT support to home owners, I can charge £30+ per hour for that, plus travelling. My capital outlay consists of a couple of grand for a laptop (every 3 or 4 years) and a couple of hundred quid for hard drives, spare routers etc. I could charge even more if I was willing to do corporate work.
The differences in the rates that i can charge are in part the result of the public watching awful DIY programs and thinking that any muppet can decorate. Conversely when it comes to IT, plumbing, etc they concede that they don't know what they are doing and are thus willing to pay higher rates.
Sadly the hierarchical nature of our society means that people that work with their hands (artisans or tradesmen) are deemed worthy of a lower return for thier labour than someone who sits in a chair and pushes bit of paper around.
A decent decorator in London will gross about the same as a HR administrator (however the decorators net will be much lower). Would you consider the latter's salary to be obscene?
I have no idea what you do for a living. Are you willing to tell us how much you earn?
____________EDIT_______________
I must say that after reading this thread again I find your overtones and sentiment objectionable.
This forum is for both tradesmen and non tradesmen.
However it is the altruism of those that you refer to as obscene and repugnant that make the forum work. Were it not for the fact that there are tradesmen like joe-90, etc., who are willing to impart their technical knowledge for free , the forum would consist of people asking questions and getting blank answers.
Where did you work- the Chatsworth Estate???
As a tradesman that spends much of his life being thirsty i seldom hear others bragging about their rates. However if the client is a pain in the ar$e then we might add a premium to the job and brag about that.
£180 a day is NOT a lot when you factor in capital outlay, taxes, materials, lack of holiday and sick pay, cost of transport, money lost through under quoting, cost of housing, lack of pension etc.
Other than decorating I additionally provide IT support to home owners, I can charge £30+ per hour for that, plus travelling. My capital outlay consists of a couple of grand for a laptop (every 3 or 4 years) and a couple of hundred quid for hard drives, spare routers etc. I could charge even more if I was willing to do corporate work.
The differences in the rates that i can charge are in part the result of the public watching awful DIY programs and thinking that any muppet can decorate. Conversely when it comes to IT, plumbing, etc they concede that they don't know what they are doing and are thus willing to pay higher rates.
Sadly the hierarchical nature of our society means that people that work with their hands (artisans or tradesmen) are deemed worthy of a lower return for thier labour than someone who sits in a chair and pushes bit of paper around.
A decent decorator in London will gross about the same as a HR administrator (however the decorators net will be much lower). Would you consider the latter's salary to be obscene?
I have no idea what you do for a living. Are you willing to tell us how much you earn?
____________EDIT_______________
I must say that after reading this thread again I find your overtones and sentiment objectionable.
This forum is for both tradesmen and non tradesmen.
However it is the altruism of those that you refer to as obscene and repugnant that make the forum work. Were it not for the fact that there are tradesmen like joe-90, etc., who are willing to impart their technical knowledge for free , the forum would consist of people asking questions and getting blank answers.
W
WetBimbette
opps,
In reply to some of the points you raised, yes, I do consider HR administrators salaries to be obscene. In the main, the rely on corporate HR tools and IT infrastructure to store and access information. They then make decisions within the scope of corporate guidelines outside of which they cannot deviate. To me, they are a bunch of pen pushers sitting in ivory towers who think they have divine jurisdiction on the rest of the workforce.
Just because a client has "picky" preferences should not justify themselves being charged inflated prices and being the subject of a bragfest in a bar.
No, I do not wish to disclose my salary.
I do accept that there are good tradesmen who charge sensible money and that a lot of them are the backbone of this forum. I have never stated otherwise. I have pointed out, that it my opinion, prices down South for a painter are inflated and related my 1st hand experience of tradesmen bragging in bars about rates and clients.
It is not my intention to be objectionable, however, when tradesmen post responses that are obviously based on vested interests I will reply accordingly. A forum is for presentation and discussion of topics and allows all sides to have input and hopefully free speech. Is that ethos not one of the basic principles of our society in the UK? Or, has the previous prolonged period of Labour Government with all of its political correctness finally stifled the UK peoples right to speak their mind without fear of retribution and persecution?
Wet Bimbette
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W
WetBimbette
It wasn`t the Labour govt. It was .......................
Nige,
I will refrain from replying on this one.........
Do you consider that only decorators have inflated prices? or all tradesmen? Or all employees/workers in London?
I decorate and might charge more than someone in the North but I have to pay the "inflated" prices of the plumber/dentist/pub landlord etc.
The cost of living/working in London is far higher than the north- hence it follows that wages need to be higher.
It does not follow that our standard of living is any higher.
You are entitled to your opinion but if Joe-90 charges £180 then that is what he charges. He might well be able to do a better, faster and cheaper job than some one on a lower rate. if that is the case then how can his rate be obscene?
day rates are not a good way of assessing the worth of a tradesman.
If I like a client I am more likely to throw in freebies, ie I am giving them a discount, that is no different to charging someone more for being an obtuse and disruptive client. a discount is just a negative premium. Part of the function of wages is to compensate one for the process of providing their labour, the more unpleasant the process the higher the return I will want.
You have come to the forum hoping for clarity and honesty. You have received it, you then criticise many of the respondents (unfairly) but you are unwilling to reciprocate. How can i defend my rates relative to yours if i don't know what you do?
In the event that since relocating to London you have not had any kind of pay increase then you have infact suffered a pay loss and I suggest that you take that up with the powers that be.
I decorate and might charge more than someone in the North but I have to pay the "inflated" prices of the plumber/dentist/pub landlord etc.
The cost of living/working in London is far higher than the north- hence it follows that wages need to be higher.
It does not follow that our standard of living is any higher.
You are entitled to your opinion but if Joe-90 charges £180 then that is what he charges. He might well be able to do a better, faster and cheaper job than some one on a lower rate. if that is the case then how can his rate be obscene?
day rates are not a good way of assessing the worth of a tradesman.
If I like a client I am more likely to throw in freebies, ie I am giving them a discount, that is no different to charging someone more for being an obtuse and disruptive client. a discount is just a negative premium. Part of the function of wages is to compensate one for the process of providing their labour, the more unpleasant the process the higher the return I will want.
You have come to the forum hoping for clarity and honesty. You have received it, you then criticise many of the respondents (unfairly) but you are unwilling to reciprocate. How can i defend my rates relative to yours if i don't know what you do?
In the event that since relocating to London you have not had any kind of pay increase then you have infact suffered a pay loss and I suggest that you take that up with the powers that be.
W
WetBimbette
opps,
I consider only that £180 per day for a painter is obscene. I have passed no other comment on any tradesmens wages. The only other comment I made on salaries was in reply to your question about HR Administrators salaries. Quite why you wished to introduce the concept of HR Administrators salaries is beyond me, smoke and mirrors perhaps to deflect from painters day rates?
Your logic of wanting extra money for having a bad day might seem a bit arrogant to the millions of UK workers in the public and private sectors. Most people who have a bad day at work simply have no option but to shrug it off.
I have no need to take up any salary issue with my employer, I am quite happy with my current salary. Quite why you wished to surmise that I may not have had a salary increase since locating to London is beyond me, more smoke and mirrors perhaps to deflect from painters day rates?
From my perspective this thread has run its course. There are two entrenched positions, the vested interests of the painters defending their rates and myself and possibly others who disagree with those rates.
Wet Bimbette
Sorry WB,
I thought that you considered £150 (let alone £180) to be too high initially, hence your initial post.
I used the HR example as a comparative wage, I just plucked a job out of the air that commanded the same type of return but as a salaried job it has many advantages not afforded to self employed workers.
I have no idea what you do for a living nor do I really care how much you earn. I don't want you to justify your income but i think it unfair of you to criticise others based on their day rate.
If Joe charges 180 but is twice as fast (and provides the same quality of finish) as someone charging 120 then he is better value. The differential in speed might be a function of capital outlay and or experience- thus he can justifiably charge more with out being "grotesque".
I don't understand the smoke and mirrors remark- you asked how much we charged and we told you.
If a client is awkward and makes me take longer to finish the job i need to recoup the money- where is your problem with that?
Others have tried to warn you about the folly of using day rates. A decent decorator should be able to give you an indication of the total cost to you of any given work.
I for one think that living on £150 a day in london hard enough and pity those that are on the minimum wage. To be frank on that kind of money i cannot afford to get pi$$ed every night and brag about my rates.
And before you shoot me down for the above I remind you that we do not get sick pay and statistically are more likely to suffer work related injuries than, for example, an office worker. We also have shorter productive working lives and no earnings related pensions at the end of our careers.
We are only defending our rates because you called them obscene.
Good luck
I thought that you considered £150 (let alone £180) to be too high initially, hence your initial post.
I used the HR example as a comparative wage, I just plucked a job out of the air that commanded the same type of return but as a salaried job it has many advantages not afforded to self employed workers.
I have no idea what you do for a living nor do I really care how much you earn. I don't want you to justify your income but i think it unfair of you to criticise others based on their day rate.
If Joe charges 180 but is twice as fast (and provides the same quality of finish) as someone charging 120 then he is better value. The differential in speed might be a function of capital outlay and or experience- thus he can justifiably charge more with out being "grotesque".
I don't understand the smoke and mirrors remark- you asked how much we charged and we told you.
If a client is awkward and makes me take longer to finish the job i need to recoup the money- where is your problem with that?
Others have tried to warn you about the folly of using day rates. A decent decorator should be able to give you an indication of the total cost to you of any given work.
I for one think that living on £150 a day in london hard enough and pity those that are on the minimum wage. To be frank on that kind of money i cannot afford to get pi$$ed every night and brag about my rates.
And before you shoot me down for the above I remind you that we do not get sick pay and statistically are more likely to suffer work related injuries than, for example, an office worker. We also have shorter productive working lives and no earnings related pensions at the end of our careers.
We are only defending our rates because you called them obscene.
Good luck
wet bimbette-
I thnk Joe-90's advice about getting 3 quotes is probably the best idea for you as I don't think it would be wise getting a day rate, ...now I'll move on as well to..
The customer
First, I'll say I'm now in the fortunate position of only working for good folk as I've dumped the troublesome ones and I've always been paid off every job I've ever done.
Some refuse to pay making excuses of no money etc. 1 multi millionaire I used to work for, always mysteriously disappeared when he knew I was finishing and wanted paying.
Some claim that they never picked the colour you've put on at their request or that the paper is not what they picked and then want you to do it for free.
The hundreds of jobs you do for free (while you're here) that soon get forgotten.
There are thousands of instances and here's just 1 more..... The person that gets the decent decorator round to price an insurance job (again for free) and then work it out in detail to send off to the insurance company, and then.................
They keep every single penny of it.
Let's be careful out there
I thnk Joe-90's advice about getting 3 quotes is probably the best idea for you as I don't think it would be wise getting a day rate, ...now I'll move on as well to..
The customer
First, I'll say I'm now in the fortunate position of only working for good folk as I've dumped the troublesome ones and I've always been paid off every job I've ever done.
Some refuse to pay making excuses of no money etc. 1 multi millionaire I used to work for, always mysteriously disappeared when he knew I was finishing and wanted paying.
Some claim that they never picked the colour you've put on at their request or that the paper is not what they picked and then want you to do it for free.
The hundreds of jobs you do for free (while you're here) that soon get forgotten.
There are thousands of instances and here's just 1 more..... The person that gets the decent decorator round to price an insurance job (again for free) and then work it out in detail to send off to the insurance company, and then.................
They keep every single penny of it.
Let's be careful out there
W
WetBimbette
opps,
I do agree with your point that if the £180 per day person is twice as fast as the £120 per day person then the £180 per day is the best option. I do not argue against that logic.
Also, I agree that tradesmen get "knocked" by scummers wishing to take advantage and that there is no contingency for paid leave, contributory pensions etc.
However, we are entering the second stage of a double dip recession with house prices about to plummet and in my personal opinion quite a lot of people have to take a hit if they are to survive. Applying this logic personally, my wish was to secure a decent quality painter at sensible money for some work I need carrying out. This I have achieved.
Good luck to you all, personally I think that the deeper this second phase of the double dip recession becomes the more you will find you are thinking about survival rather than £180 per day. I hope I am wrong.
Wet Bimbette
I do agree with your point that if the £180 per day person is twice as fast as the £120 per day person then the £180 per day is the best option. I do not argue against that logic.
Also, I agree that tradesmen get "knocked" by scummers wishing to take advantage and that there is no contingency for paid leave, contributory pensions etc.
However, we are entering the second stage of a double dip recession with house prices about to plummet and in my personal opinion quite a lot of people have to take a hit if they are to survive. Applying this logic personally, my wish was to secure a decent quality painter at sensible money for some work I need carrying out. This I have achieved.
Good luck to you all, personally I think that the deeper this second phase of the double dip recession becomes the more you will find you are thinking about survival rather than £180 per day. I hope I am wrong.
Wet Bimbette
- Joined
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Yes you are wrong. Most of my customers have been customers for decades. I charge them what I think they should be charged. They neither ask for quotes nor day rates - just do it and give them the bill. Because it's work I don't have to look for - it works out at about £120 per day.
W
WetBimbette
Yes you are wrong. Most of my customers have been customers for decades. I charge them what I think they should be charged. They neither ask for quotes nor day rates - just do it and give them the bill. Because it's work I don't have to look for - it works out at about £120 per day.
joe-90,
In times of recession, the impact can cascade throughout society just like water finds its path and the construction industry/building trade is particularly prone to recession.
The worst is yet to come, you better hope these customers of decades can hang on in there along with the rest of us. They will not be grinning at your invoices when their precious houses have plummeted in value another 30%. The house price versus earnings equation is still drastically out of balance and is due a major correction downwards for house prices.
Wet Bimbette
Like Joe-90, I too have a number of clients who trust me implicitly and don't ask for prices. This means that I do not have to worry about factoring contingencies, I also find that I round down hours and even knock time off for fag and tea breaks. The total cost for them ends up lower than it would have been otherwise.
With regard to double dips I am not sure how this will affect the more expensive painters. It is likely that the supply of lower end decorators will contract. I am not sure how it will impact on my client based, some of the lower paid ones GPs etc might have to tighten their belts slightly but the more affluent ones will probably continue to get richer, many of them seem to be making more money than they have in the last 5 years. I can't see myself aiming for less than my usual £150 but if needs must I might do longer days (a pay cut by any other name). I think it unlikely that I will ever turn to advertising but I might be proactive and call customers- to date I have been lucky that work falls into my lap.
I don't work for the SuperRich, (if they are too rich to make you a cuppa they can look elsewhere), so I don't know how decs working for them will fare- I assume that they normally use firms of decorators, where the decorator is on a lower wage anyway.
Who knows what will happen? I just hope that if things do get hard I can turn to alternative forms of income which are ancillary at the moment.
Just out of interest WetBimbette- how did you find your decorator/decorators?
thanks
With regard to double dips I am not sure how this will affect the more expensive painters. It is likely that the supply of lower end decorators will contract. I am not sure how it will impact on my client based, some of the lower paid ones GPs etc might have to tighten their belts slightly but the more affluent ones will probably continue to get richer, many of them seem to be making more money than they have in the last 5 years. I can't see myself aiming for less than my usual £150 but if needs must I might do longer days (a pay cut by any other name). I think it unlikely that I will ever turn to advertising but I might be proactive and call customers- to date I have been lucky that work falls into my lap.
I don't work for the SuperRich, (if they are too rich to make you a cuppa they can look elsewhere), so I don't know how decs working for them will fare- I assume that they normally use firms of decorators, where the decorator is on a lower wage anyway.
Who knows what will happen? I just hope that if things do get hard I can turn to alternative forms of income which are ancillary at the moment.
Just out of interest WetBimbette- how did you find your decorator/decorators?
thanks
W
WetBimbette
A recommendation by word of mouth, I happened to mention to someone that I needed a painter and they provided details of a person they had used previously with good feedback.
Wet Bimbette
- Joined
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My main job is buying, renovating and reselling houses. I don't really need to work elsewhere. I do it between projects. As far as house prices falling 30% that would put half the country into negative equity, the economy would crash and we'd be in a 30's type depression (thanks Gordon). It's not happening in my area and I can't see it happening elsewhere either. People can't sell in negative equity so the market will stabilise for a decade while everything catches up.
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