Frozen condensate pipes everywhere you go

[Hugh Jaleak]

Quoting sections from various interested bodies and the manufacturers is all very well, but every job is unique and has its own idiosyncrasies. A 'one size fits all' policy just doesnt apply. I didnt think anyone was saying the condensate couldn't be run internally, but there are and will be instances where the installer has no choice but to run an external condensate drain.

Friends of mine have a Worcester 9.24 electronic. Whilst working at the moment, they have accepted it may soon be reaching the end of its useful life. It is located in the understairs cupboard, ideally any new boiler will need to be sited in the same position. If a condensing boiler was to be fitted, there is no alternative but to take the condensate drain through the external wall and along to a rainwater pipe. An internal route is simply not an option due to the layout of the property.

 

[joesoap1]

Unfortunately it was an 'Official body' i.e. the previous government that made installation of condensing boilers mandatory. Some installers have upgraded condensate runs to 32 and 40mm pipe to try and prevent freezing, but when we have 4" pipes freezing then it begs the question what can actually be done to prevent this issue.

Building regs need amendment to provide for all new builds to have the condensate drain from the boiler connected to the drainage system internally, but this will go nowhere to solve the current issues being experienced.

As a person considering a new boiler, the only answer is to allow the use of non-condensers again.My combi is 17 years old, in a cold garage, and I had it left on tick over at night.with a frost stat.They should have only been optional from the beginning.Global warming my A""e.The green lobby are in cahoots with the gov.end of.

"When you have eliminated the immposible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

[JohnD]

that is not the only answer. A better answer is to put the boiler in a more sensible place.

 

[Tibbot]

that is not the only answer. A better answer is to put the boiler in a more sensible place.

That won't happen on a boiler change unless the customer is having other building work done at the same time because all pipes and cables, possibly pumps & controls tend to have to be moved too.

I'm in favour of customers spending on their heating systems but preferably on getting it cleaned and adding fuel saving controls rather than the expense of having a boiler relocated. The points requirement for oil boiler changes is much more sensible, they as good as rule out steamers if it means the customer having to re-locate a new boiler in another room.

 

[genghis]

So as to illustrate the plausibilty of the sh*t you write, Could you describe how it would be easier for the 'bioler/plumbing trade' to install an external condensate line if an internal route is readily available. Furthermore could you explain how those same 'bioler/plumbing trade' will continue an amicable ongoing relationship with their customers and enhance their reputation for future business once it's discovered that this is a deliberate ploy to con them.

Sweetheart keep your knickers on. The guidance in the B Regs, the government and what is coming out from the Heating council is clear, the pipes SHOULD BE plumbed internally 'if possible'.

What tends to happen is this:

1) Boilers are normaly mounted on external walls, the shortest route for the condensate pipe out is thro the external wall. HENCE you genius you, the plumbers taking the shortest and most convenient route out for them!!!!

2) the Installers are then in the money cos they know (or at least this 'experienced' installers should know!) that the pipes will freeze...So they get call backs. they charge a hundred quid, and fix the issue temporarily.

Dont ask me this question again, your industry doesnt have a bad reputation just for the sake of it!

 

[genghis]

Quoting sections from various interested bodies and the manufacturers is all very well, but every job is unique and has its own idiosyncrasies. A 'one size fits all' policy just doesnt apply. I didnt think anyone was saying the condensate couldn't be run internally, but there are and will be instances where the installer has no choice but to run an external condensate drain.

Friends of mine have a Worcester 9.24 electronic. Whilst working at the moment, they have accepted it may soon be reaching the end of its useful life. It is located in the understairs cupboard, ideally any new boiler will need to be sited in the same position. If a condensing boiler was to be fitted, there is no alternative but to take the condensate drain through the external wall and along to a rainwater pipe. An internal route is simply not an option due to the layout of the property.

Im not for a minute arguing there is one size fits all. BUT every single property has waste pipes...

Secondly, condensing boilers have become massively appealing after a pro government drive for these 'efficient' boilers in the last 5 years or so. And hence the problems have occured now cos what the installers have done, by taking the shortest route externally.

 

[genghis]

I cant believe the tradesmen are still trying to argue that they have no choice but to plumb the condensate pipe outside.

Read the B Regs Section i have already quote on Page 2! You absolutely do not need to plumb the condensate pipe outside.

In fact have a read of the following:

http://www.centralheating.co.uk/sys...ENSATE_DRAINAGE_PIPE_INSTALLATION__FINAL_.pdf

The is the official position of the heating and hotwater council

Secondly read this

http://www.viessmann.co.uk/etc/medi...402.File.File.tmp/Frozen condensate pipes.pdf

Thirdly read section 1.14 on page 13 of Section H of the Building Regs:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADH_2002.pdf

Its says you can definitley connect to internal pipes.

Now read the advice from corgi expert:

http://www.atmos.uk.com/core_files/productDoc(102).pdf

Almost all of the above (the experts/guidance) are saying it saying it can and should be plumbed internally.

Its simply a bonanza for the bioler/plumbing trade, they must be (no change that, 'definitely are'!) getting inundated with calls! So they charge 25 quid for a call out, and simply fix the issue temporarily by thawing out the condensate until next week! lol.

And finally and this already posted in an alternative thread:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1342357/Central-heating-break-big-freeze-Heres-.html

Actually im impressed with all this research ive done!

 

[JohnD]

my boiler is in the kitchen, where the majority of them are. Every kitchen has a sink, most also have a washing machine and/or dishwasher. All of these are connected to a drain, and no-one says its impossible. No-one puts a boiler on the wall and then says it's impossible to run a gas pipe, or heating pipes, to it.

some silly people choose to have their boilers in lofts, sheds or unheated garages. More fool them. Once they have had a few frozen pipes, they might learn to be more sensible next time.

 

[Tibbot]

What tends to happen is this:

1) Boilers are normaly mounted on external walls, the shortest route for the condensate pipe out is thro the external wall. HENCE you genius you, the plumbers taking the shortest and most convenient route out for them!!!!

And mostly external walls of kitchens and utility rooms where internal connections to wastes are readily available.

Just cos' you've probably tried to cut it in this trade and failed, don't come on here pretending you contribute anything, knocking people you don't know. You've nothing technical to ask nor seem capable of giving answers so you serve no useful purpose on the forum.

 

[Andrew47]

We have the same freezing problem from a new boiler with temperatures down to minus 17 this month and 2 weeks below zero. The first problem is that the condensing boiler really is more efficient. The second problem is that a lagged, falling pipe into a downpipe does not freeze, the down-pipe does,quickly and throughout the cold spell I disconnected and went into a bucket, as the plumber clearly had no idea (although still charged for a failed fix) If we are going to get these temperatures again we need to find an internal pipe even if this needs a pump. I have tried lagging and a bigger pipe connection but all this is ineffective against temperatures that stay that low for that long. Trace heating will only work if it goes all the way to ground level.

 

[genghis]

Just cos' you've probably tried to cut it in this trade and failed, don't come on here pretending you contribute anything, knocking people you don't know. You've nothing technical to ask nor seem capable of giving answers so you serve no useful purpose on the forum.

Was just waiting for this, 'havent contributed technically'. Thats the problem with tradesmen like you, you cannot accept that you could possibly be wrong! So all of a sudden, despite showing you the B Regs, the government guidelines, the corgi guidelines and the current manufacturers stance, you're gonna have a go at me? lol.

You're on the defensive and you know it. Stop digging deeper, take a deep breath, relax and have a read. You never know, even a complete jerk like me might be able to teach you a thing or two!

 

[Tibbot]

You never know, even a complete jerk like me might be able to teach you a thing or two!

Every tradesman agrees and prefers internal condensate runs. No one wants call backs. Because you have no experience whatsoever you'll not know it's extremely difficult to charge customers anything for any post install problems at least until reasonable wear & tear set in.

Reputable fitters will be sorting problems like freezing condensate FOC, as I have had to even for customers where I haven't installed their boiler but have had their bathroom or other work. Your lack of on-site experience will also prevent you from understanding that where conditions or customers dictate an external run is within any rules, most importantly the manufacturers which with gas appliances override any and all other requirements. Furthermore any external run will have to terminate in an approved way, usually a foul drain or worse a soakaway which can mean it's far from the easiest route hence anyone will look internally first.

Finally, believe what you like but don't kid yourself you can teach me about any aspect plumbing & heating, life on earth, space, infinity or beyond.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

A lot of the problem IMO is the folk that dream up the regs etc dont live in the same world as the rest of us. Most have probably never been on a site in their life, and half sit behind desks in nice warm offices dreaming up these regs to justify their salary and gold plated pension. (Funded by the taxpayers of course...)

Every job has to be dealt with on its own merits. Whereas an estate of properties built within the last 30 years had central heating 'built in', and systems are likely to be virtually identical, many older properties have had CH retrofitted over the years, each with an individual installation decided by the installer/client at the time. The local housing association here fitted all their properties with CH in the late 90's. All had a BBU fitted, chimney in centre of the house. Many older properties were fitted with open flue boilers, (mine had a Potterton Kingfisher CF), in place of the original Aga or stoves in the 'middle' of the property, or a BBU in the lounge.

When these reach the end of their useful lives either the house has to be pulled apart to reroute the pipes to the new boiler position or space found to fit a condensate pump. Either way, this still needs to be terminated at a suitable point which may not be available internally. The engineer on site has to make a decision based on the situation he/she is faced with. In an ideal world there wouldnt be a problem. We dont live in an ideal world, and a 'one size fits all policy' just wont work.

 

[Tibbot]

Was just waiting for this, 'havent contributed technically'. Thats the problem with tradesmen like you

Forget condensate termination, that's just a vehicle you've used to make your only contribution. Which is to imply that heating installers do their job deliberately incorrectly in order to capitalise financially from the resulting faults. Now you pause, take a breath and wonder at the patheticness of that assumption. Then ask yourself why you're courting scornful replies.

 

[lawrance]

Just cos' you've probably tried to cut it in this trade and failed, don't come on here pretending you contribute anything, knocking people you don't know. You've nothing technical to ask nor seem capable of giving answers so you serve no useful purpose on the forum.

Was just waiting for this, 'havent contributed technically'. Thats the problem with tradesmen like you, you cannot accept that you could possibly be wrong! So all of a sudden, despite showing you the B Regs, the government guidelines, the corgi guidelines and the current manufacturers stance, you're gonna have a go at me? lol.

You're on the defensive and you know it. Stop digging deeper, take a deep breath, relax and have a read. You never know, even a complete jerk like me might be able to teach you a thing or two!

This dick is probably a rogue custard with a chip on his shoulder
In the new year go and see a shrink