as the title says .do we really think any of the manufactures are good or do they all need a kick up the back side to raise the quality and standard of their products?
do we really feel that any boiler is good ?
- Thread starter heatingeng
- Start date
L
lifesagasman
i'll blog this thread, heatingeng, 'cos i think nearly all the boilers that i'm familiar with are over-engineered, in the pursuit of 'efficiency', which, in itself, relies more on the end-users ability to manage the energy they use than the boiler's own ability to 'run efficiently'. hence the drive to insulate, turn down the room stat etc.
boilers now are generally very complicated and very expensive to repair, but why so? many engineers struggle to make a correct diagnosis of faults first time and the parts that get fitted unneccessarily cost a small fortune, a factor that shocks the customer when they see the bill. any saving?? on the gas bill is lost on repair costs.
having worked on local authority contracts, a couple of classic examples of poor R&D come to mind. one is the glowworm 30 CXi where the monobloc was made of such poor quality material the manufacturers paid us handsomely to go around replacing them all, and the worcester 28i Jr. why do their engineers drive around with a van full of fans for them? some fans didn't even work enough for new boilers to get commissioned.
advances in technology are one thing, but if products aren't reliable due to dismal component quality then the whole point is lost.
i liken the boiler industry to the car industry where great fuel efficiencies can be achieved but less and less repairers can easily diagnose the faults when they happen; is it the engine management system, or one of the myriad valves or sensors etc.
for my money the simplest, most reliable boiler was the WB 24CDi, with a reputation that was shot down in flames when the greenstar replaced it.
P.S. i'm not an expert on every boiler ever made, but i do question the logic of unreliable build quality for such a basic household need. would i be cynical if i thought it's a damn good money-spinner for the manufacturers?
boilers now are generally very complicated and very expensive to repair, but why so? many engineers struggle to make a correct diagnosis of faults first time and the parts that get fitted unneccessarily cost a small fortune, a factor that shocks the customer when they see the bill. any saving?? on the gas bill is lost on repair costs.
having worked on local authority contracts, a couple of classic examples of poor R&D come to mind. one is the glowworm 30 CXi where the monobloc was made of such poor quality material the manufacturers paid us handsomely to go around replacing them all, and the worcester 28i Jr. why do their engineers drive around with a van full of fans for them? some fans didn't even work enough for new boilers to get commissioned.
advances in technology are one thing, but if products aren't reliable due to dismal component quality then the whole point is lost.
i liken the boiler industry to the car industry where great fuel efficiencies can be achieved but less and less repairers can easily diagnose the faults when they happen; is it the engine management system, or one of the myriad valves or sensors etc.
for my money the simplest, most reliable boiler was the WB 24CDi, with a reputation that was shot down in flames when the greenstar replaced it.
P.S. i'm not an expert on every boiler ever made, but i do question the logic of unreliable build quality for such a basic household need. would i be cynical if i thought it's a damn good money-spinner for the manufacturers?
I think that most boilers are engineered just fine.
Its true that a few are not as reliable as they ought to be. But most are actually pretty reliable with less than one in 10 needing a warrantee repair.
Unfortunately many boiler repairers are not fair with their customers and still charge them for parts which are not required and for taking a long time to diagnose faults when its really as a result of their lack of diagnostic skills.
Part of the problem is that its so easy for almost anyone to pay to go on a gas course and get registered in a few weeks and then let themselves loose on the unsuspecting public.
Many of the public are their own worse enemies! I tell callers that we charge a fixed price for diagnosing faults and then they go to someone who only charges £45 an hour. But their skill level is lower and end up taking two hours so the ultimate payment is higher.
Then there are the many, particularly those employed by the call out companies who take their time so they end up always charging for say two hours regardless. I remember one boss, who told me when I enquired about doing work for them, if the bill is not at least £300 per job then its not worth it to him or me. He clearly did not want someone like me who would fix it as quickly as poss.
Tony
Its true that a few are not as reliable as they ought to be. But most are actually pretty reliable with less than one in 10 needing a warrantee repair.
Unfortunately many boiler repairers are not fair with their customers and still charge them for parts which are not required and for taking a long time to diagnose faults when its really as a result of their lack of diagnostic skills.
Part of the problem is that its so easy for almost anyone to pay to go on a gas course and get registered in a few weeks and then let themselves loose on the unsuspecting public.
Many of the public are their own worse enemies! I tell callers that we charge a fixed price for diagnosing faults and then they go to someone who only charges £45 an hour. But their skill level is lower and end up taking two hours so the ultimate payment is higher.
Then there are the many, particularly those employed by the call out companies who take their time so they end up always charging for say two hours regardless. I remember one boss, who told me when I enquired about doing work for them, if the bill is not at least £300 per job then its not worth it to him or me. He clearly did not want someone like me who would fix it as quickly as poss.
Tony
L
lifesagasman
agree with you agile, and skill level is a key factor on repairs. on the one hand there are the old-school, familiar with out-of-date kit who just don't keep up to speed with the latest products, and the next generation who are very good at downloading music off the intenet but couldn't make toast.
somewhere inbetween a gallant band are holding the fort, but for how much longer?
even a figure of 1 in 10 is poor for a static machine, it's not difficult to R&D an appliance before it is released.
i am turning cynical....
somewhere inbetween a gallant band are holding the fort, but for how much longer?
even a figure of 1 in 10 is poor for a static machine, it's not difficult to R&D an appliance before it is released.
i am turning cynical....
I said LESS than one in ten.
One boiler has a genuine warrantee call as a result of a manufacturer's fault of about one in 300 boilers and even a warantee call rate of about one in 100 boilers but most of those are as a result of an installation problem or something not covered ny the manufacturer like leaks from radiators.
Even the boilers with a high call out rate is usually just a single unreliable component like the diverter valve or combustion seals on the Vaillants and the ignition modules on the last Viessmann. We carry those parts with us.
The problem boilers are the ones which have a high call out rate with multiple different causes! Luckily those are few!
Tony
One boiler has a genuine warrantee call as a result of a manufacturer's fault of about one in 300 boilers and even a warantee call rate of about one in 100 boilers but most of those are as a result of an installation problem or something not covered ny the manufacturer like leaks from radiators.
Even the boilers with a high call out rate is usually just a single unreliable component like the diverter valve or combustion seals on the Vaillants and the ignition modules on the last Viessmann. We carry those parts with us.
The problem boilers are the ones which have a high call out rate with multiple different causes! Luckily those are few!
Tony
As far as I am concerned , boiler reliability is dire , most if not all need a kick up the backside , as they dump yet another , best thing since sliced bread boiler into the market place , with built in (?) obselecence , so they can rip every one off on spare parts , 5 year plus warrantys , may well sell the product , but I believe it will cause prob's for installers in the future ????? .
Been to a Glowworm betacom today less than 2 years old and glowworm will not cover it.
They said it was sludged up and that it had not been installed correctly ..
To be honest it all look ok to me . I flushed it and fitted a boiler buddy .
Plumber that fitted it would not come back to it ..
They said it was sludged up and that it had not been installed correctly ..
To be honest it all look ok to me . I flushed it and fitted a boiler buddy .
Plumber that fitted it would not come back to it ..
Potterton Diplomat 30+3 the best gas boiler ever made didn't even need electricity is was controlled by relay valve and weep line with a Horstmann wind up time clock -nothing ever went wrong with them!
Progress hey?
Progress hey?
M
mysteryman
It is far too easy to condemn boilers on a site such as this. There are excellent boilers out there, and if they are installed correctly on CLEAN systems, they are just fine.
It is the idiots who shout that sludge is in some way the boiler's fault who do the most harm.
It is the idiots who shout that sludge is in some way the boiler's fault who do the most harm.
Got to agree with you. You wouldnt buy a petrol car and then put diesel in and expect it to work..
sorry guys but blaming manufacturers for the quality of their boilers is a futile argument just stop fitting them
they're is over 40+ boiler makes selling in the UK.
the UK is a 1.2+ million boiler a year market
the price of boilers have gotten cheaper in real terms.
specifiers,installers & general public have chosen cheaper less reliable boilers. we are the ones picking them. the boiler manufacturers are only making what sells and keeps selling.
sorry mysteryman, but when manufacturers fail us or do/make something that we don't like. we have to slate you
forums like this one are one of the few corrective influence in the industry.
if we want more reliable boilers we have to choice to install more reliable boilers... not fit cheaper ones wonder why it all gone to pot.
they're is over 40+ boiler makes selling in the UK.
the UK is a 1.2+ million boiler a year market
the price of boilers have gotten cheaper in real terms.
specifiers,installers & general public have chosen cheaper less reliable boilers. we are the ones picking them. the boiler manufacturers are only making what sells and keeps selling.
sorry mysteryman, but when manufacturers fail us or do/make something that we don't like. we have to slate you
forums like this one are one of the few corrective influence in the industry.
if we want more reliable boilers we have to choice to install more reliable boilers... not fit cheaper ones wonder why it all gone to pot.
mehram - good post, agree on all points.
But one thing missing: Installers who are not 100% honourable.
Most householders leave boiler choice to installer, either they're not asked or as they don't deal with boilers every day, when asked will ask "What do you recommend Mr Plumber?"
The less than perfect plumber may well;
Choose a boiler that offers the biggest markup / trade discount that he can cream off just in getting it into the house.
Choose the boiler that he's most familiar with, not caring about efficiencies, only that he doesn't have to scratch his head learning a new make.
Choose a boiler that's less than ideal because it'll break down and he'll get repeat work from fixing it, and if it's not his workmanship that's failed he'll have no comeback or need to do it for free.
Choose a boiler that's cheaper (and worse) because he has a mental figure the customer will be happy to pay for the job, and the less he pays on parts means the more he'll get in profit.
What's the incentive to the bad plumber to fit a perfect boiler that will last 30 years and only need annual servicing? I think that attitude, whilst not common, exists in sizable enough numbers to ensure that the crap boiler makers will continue to get business for many years to come.
I know that sounds like I have a downer on plumbers. I don't, honestly. But they're no different to any other trade or business. There's a big bunch of Ok plumbers, a margin of crap/dishonest and a margin of superb. Flattery aside, I think most of the plumbers in here will be the upper end of the quality spectrum since you love your subject so much you're spending evenings talking and learning about it and trying to help others for free - but I don't think you're wholly representative of your trade!
But one thing missing: Installers who are not 100% honourable.
Most householders leave boiler choice to installer, either they're not asked or as they don't deal with boilers every day, when asked will ask "What do you recommend Mr Plumber?"
The less than perfect plumber may well;
Choose a boiler that offers the biggest markup / trade discount that he can cream off just in getting it into the house.
Choose the boiler that he's most familiar with, not caring about efficiencies, only that he doesn't have to scratch his head learning a new make.
Choose a boiler that's less than ideal because it'll break down and he'll get repeat work from fixing it, and if it's not his workmanship that's failed he'll have no comeback or need to do it for free.
Choose a boiler that's cheaper (and worse) because he has a mental figure the customer will be happy to pay for the job, and the less he pays on parts means the more he'll get in profit.
What's the incentive to the bad plumber to fit a perfect boiler that will last 30 years and only need annual servicing? I think that attitude, whilst not common, exists in sizable enough numbers to ensure that the crap boiler makers will continue to get business for many years to come.
I know that sounds like I have a downer on plumbers. I don't, honestly. But they're no different to any other trade or business. There's a big bunch of Ok plumbers, a margin of crap/dishonest and a margin of superb. Flattery aside, I think most of the plumbers in here will be the upper end of the quality spectrum since you love your subject so much you're spending evenings talking and learning about it and trying to help others for free - but I don't think you're wholly representative of your trade!
Your other points may apply in some cases but the above is absolute b*ll**ks. You try charging someone to repair something you've supplied that continually breaks down. An expired warranty won't make a farthing's difference. If anything the type of installer you've described has no interest looking after their work anyway.
Just about to finish installing a Viessmann 100. Well designed, well built, easy to work on and not complicated at all.
If you had to flush it and install a filter, it looks like GW were right.
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