Will erp actually help the public?

[mogget]

I'm guessing this will be a sore point with many.

But it occurs to me that if these new energy labels are to be useful, people will need to compare the efficiency of their existing system or parts of it to whatever is to be installed. So I set about seeing if I could generate a label or even just a band/rating for my heating system, due to curiosity. All components of my system are still on sale apart from the room thermostat.

I hit a complete dead end, or rather a barrier reading "sign in with your gas safe details / give us your personal data / sell your soul to continue". Or, "register the product and we'll generate a label for you". What use is that? Surely the idea of energy labels is to look before you buy?

Anyway, this leads me on to my question: is there (will there be) any way to generate an erp energy label for an existing system?

Thanks
Mogget.

 

[Corgigrouch]

No need to think about such things, just do as the EU tell you. They know best

 

[mogget]

Seems to be about the size of it, doesn't it.

 

[Corgigrouch]

Sadly, yes.... EUP has very little to do with efficiency and has everything to do with red tape...Those installers who understand it will simply charge more for fitting more efficient heating controls that they were going to fit anyway, mainly because they want their customers to have as efficient heating as possible. Those who don't understand it will ignore it.

Nowhere has up sizing of radiators to allow condensing boiler to run more efficiently been mentioned..It's all about low energy pumps, weather compensation and clever thermostats

Let the chaos begin..

 

[vulcancontinental]

Looks like confusion already has.

The EU has a very good explanatory document explaining the changes (GuidelinesSpaceWaterHeaters_FINAL) there is also has a label generator.

The HHIC website is very good as well with links to the above.

The ErP is about efficiency and the thrust is reducing boiler flow temperatures to the heating system, it is not necessary to increase radiator sizes to achieve this.

The red tape is for the manufacturer to include a high efficiency pump in the boiler and drive it plus issue a label with the appliance or literature. Compare the power consumption of a Grunfos 15-60 and a Grunfos UPM3 15-60 for the reason why. For the heating installer it usually entails looking at the ErP heating efficiency of the appliance then adding the uplift figure the type of controls being sold with the heater as a package will achieve.

There are eight classes of control system offering between 1% and 5% uplift.

AFAIK nearly all heaters will be within heating appliance Band A (there is an exemption) then add the control to that heating efficiency, i.e. an ON/OFF room stat adding 1% to a 93% heating efficiency boiler = 94% package.

Solar panels, heat pumps and second boilers in a system need more complicated calculation

If the heater and control together hit 98% package efficiency you then have an A+ package.

It is discretionary if fitting a heater and using existing controls or vice-versa so the answer to your question is yes and no, you can do it you want with the label generator but don't have to. You may not be able to complete the label as the sound pressure is also included on a proper label and you may not have that figure on an earlier boiler.

It can be a pain in the bottom or a sales aid, it's up to you but the punter has a simple coloured line as a reference and simple numbers to follow, except in sound pressure as decibels are logarithmic not linear measurements so big differences do not necessarily mean in proportion.

 

[mogget]

Thankyou Vulcan, that has helped de-mystify it all a bit for me. I don't see "tpi thermostat with modulating heater" though. Perhaps modulating in eu-speak means modulating by demand, rather than modulating to achieve a set flow temperature?

Edit: just to add, it's not the label itself that matters to me but more the numbers, as I am not a pro, although I hope to resume my training eventually. For example I now see that with my gas bill, there's no point installing more efficient controls from an economic standpoint. But if I was having a complete new system installed I'd have more chance of being able to weigh it all up. But I suspect the bureaucratic side will cost a lot of people money, either installer or customer, or both.

 

[vulcancontinental]

A tpi room stat turns the boiler on or off, it just contains software to reduce cycling, it does not adjust boiler temp. A tpi stat is a 2% uplift.

Modulating means governing the heater flow and return temp by the control interacting directly on the boiler pcb. Some on off systems try to do that by turning the boiler on off and sampling the flow temp.

 

[mogget]

Aha another instance of a word's meaning changing over time then. I now understand modulation in the EU sense.

That said my 'best boiler in the world' (!) hxi behaves as an on/off design under most circumstances anyway...

 

[Corgigrouch]

Looks like confusion already has..

Indeed it has and I am one of the more switched on ones... Essentially you took a page to say exactly what I did, save for the radiator upsizing.....Your job at the EU awaits..

I shall enjoy explaining this Carp to the customers and enjoy going to other installers jobs to try to correct the poor DHW performance due to the ill thought out application of WC on system boilers......The best instruction that has been available to installers was an hour or so long seminar run by the merchants, 40% of which was sales spiel.

Yes the salesmen from the big companies will have a field day whilst the small guys struggle

The EU has benefited big companies and has screwed the small guy and end user..

 

[vulcancontinental]

Not me with the EU, better the mafia than the EU, oh wait, there's not much difference. At my age if I was able to put into my house what I wanted it'd be a CI boiler and an S plan but it will not be but a zoned low temp OT controlled system with WC and boiler with a modulating fan and 8 speed pump - yippee!

I had to download the Guidelines and read them so I thought I did OK getting it as short as I did; oh well, was the best I could do. You're welcome to explain it better, in fact I wish you would but you just gave your opinion which is fine but not quite the same thing. I've heard it all before in the chat's I've had to give and without any sales speil either. The best instruction actually is to use the industry website, the Heating and Hot Water Industry Council and download the docs and read them but of course there's no free grub, coffee or beer with that and it's a bit too much like homework. And to be honest, I could have just answered the question asked originally and that is use the label generator but I ramble, sorry.

You can go three ways with this, enjoy explaining carp to the customers or explain why the Directive was written and what the intentions are. You can be negative, realistic or optimistic, you'll still get sales depends on your presentation and the outlook of the customer so situation normal. Personally I think a good small guy will always out punch a flabby large company if he's prepared and motivated - but whatever.

Larger radiators do not make a boiler run more efficiently, why would they be included in the ErP directive? TRV's do not make the heater run more efficiently, that's why they are not in the Directive.

Manufacturers have benifited themselves actually, just look at the list of those industry control bods who sat in on the consultative committee at the EU. Read the Guidelines description of catagory IV for TPI thermostats, it's an advertisment for Honeywell I think there were three guys from HW on the committee.

The ErP is what it is and we'll have to deal with it as we see fit.

 

[Corgigrouch]

No. I think that you have explained these requirements very well indeed though I fear that they have not made anyone here jump up and shout Hurah for more regulations...More paper work to chase my installer for and then to lose..All for the sake of a few percentage points. And what does it mean to someone in a 1920s semi with single glazing and solid walls?

I could do my homework on this when I have done my homework on air conditioning efficiency inspections (Another lame duck regulation)... The ErP can wait until I have time to study it and it has been implemented for some time.. I'm not going to do any more with it. I don't install any more so as long as I am aware of its existence then that is enough... I can blame the price of parts on the manufacturers.

Again you have used many words to agree with what I have already said (In the main) and although you work for a manufacturer I can tell that your heart really isn't behind these directives.

In the main, I do quite like more modern boilers and controls, though I do find myself returning a fair number of pumps to Grundfos due to faulty speed controls.. If I could import a container of Chinese made 3 speed Grunny 15-50s then I would but the EU boiler gestapo would probably clap me in irons for ever... Grundfos almost had a trouser accident telling us daft grunts how much energy their new pumps can save and the Vaillant rep took on an almost Hitler like tone towards his presentation.....I almost fell asleep dreaming of my cheap over cooked curry and ghastly pint of John Smiths... I gave my voucher away and had a double scotch instead

 

[vulcancontinental]

Don't know where you are but if we met we wouldn't spend too much time in disagreement. Especially on the sctch.

I do think the changes are good for saving fuel but what isn't put about by the manufacturers (except me) is the appliances will need better servicing and fuel isn't the only cost, money spent shipping gear around the world, increase breakdowns, more engineers on the road etc, when that is factored in against a 20 year old boiler with a thermocouple I don't imagine much of a difference, it's just we don't want to buy so much gas from Russia I reckon.

Hey ho.

 

[Corgigrouch]

Sadly it was only a cheap blend but better than the swill beer produced by the big breweries... I too doubt that we'd disagree on much.

I'm all for saving resources of all kinds, not just gas but there has to be a balance between reliability and economy... We can make a system almost totally efficient but the powers that be will force us to spend even more on shaving fractions of percentage points... The solution is pretty obvious.. Insulation, you fit it once, never needs servicing or repair and costs nothing to run... Perhaps this in one of my rare moments of sanity

 

[mogget]

Must admit I went for the insulation approach first, quickest payback.

I must thank you both for educating me, you both make some good points and I would certainly join you for a scotch if you'd allow me but unfortunately my health won't stand for it.

(And my tablet computer still won't do smileys with the new forum software)

 

[vulcancontinental]

Yes but the problem that throws up is controlling the breathing of the building, I'm going through that now. Building control want vapour back board, tape sealed joints to keep the more moist air away from any noticeably colder surface in a property that doesn't breath. It's all b*ll*cks in my mind, warm the house, wear a jumper keep a window openn for air change, let the property (and owners) breathe. Slept all last winter in a tent in an unheated chapel, bloody cold but I haven't slept as well since I was a kid. Lots of covers though.