Eh? Why do you think that's unrealistic?
2 way wall socket question
- Thread starter graykev
- Start date
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Don't be ridiculous.
You said "each individual socket-outlet must withstand a current of 14A."
I said "not each one simultaneously".
I said "not each one simultaneously".
How on earth does that become close, or even vaguely near, to being a claim that BS 1363 forbids a twin socket to cope with 26A?
But not at a current of 13A from one side of a twin when 13A is also going through the other side.
So there can't be anything about a twin socket being able to supply 26A.
OK.
It is a test condition.
It is the only test condition for temperature rise.
To comply with BS 1363 a twin socket only has to stay below a certain temperature when supplying 14A+6A.
To comply with BS 1363 a twin socket never has to be tested for temperature rise when supplying 13A+13A.
If you have a socket which conforms to BS 1363 you have no way of knowing whether it will undergo an acceptable temperature rise, or an unacceptable one, when it supplies 26A because that performance is not required to be tested by BS 1363.
What else can you buy which states one figure but is only tested to, or has to not overheat, at 77% of that rating?
INHI.
Nor do I have any idea why someone should think that if a twin socket does not have to demonstrate any ability to handle 26A that it must be able to handle 26A.
Nor do I have any idea why someone should think that if a twin socket does not have to demonstrate any ability to handle 26A that it must be able to handle 26A.
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My question was replying to Stillp.
Ah.
Did I say that it did?
Where did I say or imply that?
It makes no mention of what is "going through the other side". They are both still 13A socket-outlets.
Why should there be? 2 x 13 = 26.
Not correct. It must not exceed certain temperatures during a specific test. That is considered sufficient to verify that the requirement of 16.1 "Socket-outlets and their surroundings shall not attain excessive temperatures in normal use".
Correct, but it is a requirement of BS1363.
All 13A socket-outlets are tested at 100% of their rating. It is only the combination of two on a common faceplate that is not tested at the maximum rating for that combination. A bit like diversity.
Ok.
Or a bit like a 200mph Ferrari only tested to 155.
Or a bit like a 200mph Ferrari only tested to 155.
Only tested for one of its parameters at 155 mph, yes.
Yes:
Apologies - you didn't.
They are never, ever, EVER required to withstand 13A through each simultaneously without overheating. If a standard says "it must pass 20A without overheating", and does not say "it must pass 26A without overheating", what makes you say that a twin socket which conforms to the standard must be able to pass 26A?
Because a twin socket is not required to have the ability to pass 2 x 13A. If it is not required to have that ability then there can be no guarantee that any particular one does have that ability.
And that test is 14A+6A.
"Normal use" is undefined.
If what you claim were true, why on earth would there ever need to be all of the test loadings outlined in Table 5 of 16.1.3? Why not just require a test at 13A per outlet?
What kind of logic says that "if it doesn't get too hot at 20A it will therefore not get too hot at 26A"?
No it isn't.
What kind of logic says that "if it doesn't get too hot at 20A it will therefore not get too hot at 26A"?
Yes they are. They are 13A socket-outlets. There are two of them. The standard does not state "it must pass 20A without overheating", it states that socket-outlets shall not attain excessive temperatures in normal use, and adds a test at 20A for between 4 and 8 hours during which parts of the socket-outlet shall not exceed specified temperatures. Don't confuse the requirements of the standard with the test specifications - not every requirement is fully tested.
So why aren't they called twin 10A socket-outlets then? Or 14+6A socket-outlets?
IHNI, I'm not a member of PEL/23. Perhaps 14 + 6A for 4 - 8 hours is intended to represent normal use? Perhaps the EUT would take longer than 8 hours to reach thermal equilibrium if loaded at 26A? (This is quite important when considering test house fees).
Oh yes it is! They are 13A socket-outlets, and shall carry 13A.
OOI, what do you consider to be the maximum long-term current rating of two single socket-outlets side by side in a dual back box? Slightly more surface area to dissipate heat, but also a second set of supply terminals.
No they are not.
If you believe they are then please show me where in BS 1363 it says that in order to comply with the standard they have to be able to do that.
If it doesn't say that they have to then it doesn't matter for how long, or how often you say "but they are called 13A sockets" (nor how reasonable), the fact will be that there is no requirement for a twin socket to demonstrate any performance in any area at 26A, and therefore there cannot possibly be any guarantee that one will perform in an acceptable way at 26A.
There just cannot be.
And don't you confuse my quite-probably-informal terminology with not actually meaning what you know full well it means.
Maybe you think it is clever, or useful, to say that having to pass "a test at 20A for between 4 and 8 hours during which parts of the socket-outlet shall not exceed specified temperatures" is not the same as "it must pass 20A without overheating" or that being able to pass 20A for between 4 and 8 hours during which parts of the socket-outlet shall not exceed specified temperatures does not mean that it can pass 20A for between 4 and 8 hours without overheating, but I doubt you'd find many people who agreed with you on that.
The fact is that to comply with BS 1363 a twin socket has to pass a test where it is loaded at 14A+6A for 4-8 hours without overheating. (I look forward to you trying to claim that the "specified temperatures" are ones where the socket has overheated.)
The fact is that to comply with BS 1363 a twin socket does not have to pass any test, for any performance or behaviour, where it is loaded at 13A+13A.
I don't know. Maybe because they are designed to accept BS 1363 plugs fused at a maximum of 13A.
But I'll tell you two things I do know:
- I know that there is no requirement for a twin socket to demonstrate any performance in any area at 26A.
- Therefore there cannot possibly be any guarantee that one will perform in an acceptable way at 26A. There just cannot be.
Fair enough. So in that case, applying normal common sense, what makes you think that because a twin socket has to be OK at a total load of 20A it must therefore be OK at a total load of 30% more than that even though the standard imposes no requirements for performance at, and specifies no tests to be carried out at, that higher loading?
Dear God...
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Perhaps it would. We have no way of knowing, because that test is not required.
And perhaps when it reached there it would have reached a higher temperature. We have no way of knowing, because that test is not required.
Or maybe it would reach equilibrium in the same time, but at a higher temperature. We have no way of knowing, because that test is not required.
If you believe they are then please show me where in BS 1363 it says that in order to comply with the standard a twin socket has to be able to do that on both its outlets at the same time.
If it doesn't say that they have to then it doesn't matter for how long, or how often you say "but they are called 13A sockets" (nor how reasonable), the fact will be that there is no requirement for a twin socket to demonstrate any performance in any area at 26A, and therefore there cannot possibly be any guarantee that one will perform in an acceptable way at 26A.
There just cannot be.
And also, in case you have forgotten, no shared internal components whatsoever. So in no way the same as a twin socket.
As to the answer, that would be 20A (split anywhere from 13+7 to 10+10). Because BS 1363 does not require a single socket to remain at an acceptable temperature with the supply cable carrying more than 20A. It just doesn't. And therefore there cannot possibly be any guarantee that one will perform in an acceptable way with more than 20A on the supply cable.
There just cannot be.
It would, perhaps, be better if the standard required that the cable be loaded to the point where the conductors reached 70°C, but there you go.
And just to pre-empt another possible attempt at clever and useful behaviour on your part, yes I know you didn't say they were sharing a cable, and yes I have assumed they are.
If that is not what you meant, and if you think it is significant, I look forward to you explaining why it would be useful to consider the performance of two single sockets on two separate cables when discussing the performance of one twin socket on one cable.
It says they are 13A sockets.
It is different. The test has a time factor included, your statement "it must pass 20A without overheating" does not. Can you not understand that something can be OK at a current of x amps for a short time, but can only withstand y amps for a longer time?
That is correct, but each of the sockets shall meet certain performance requirements at 13A.
Good point, I'd overlooked that.
So much for the suggestion that is sometimes made on this forum that two single sockets is a better arrangement for two adjacent high-current appliances than a twin.DIYnot Local
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