CSCS card with no NVQ or G&G???

[confused mum]

Hi. My son who has been a qualified Joiner for 10 yrs but served his apprenticeship the old fashioned way... On site... Has no NVQ or C&G.
He was unable to get on an apprenticeship via college because he is dyslexic, however is a great joiner and has got a great reference from the company he served with. He has never been out of work, he is self employed and works as a sub contractor. A company that wants him is insisting on him having a CSCS card which he can't get....
does anyone know how he can get either a card without an NVQ or how can he get an NVQ without doing an apprenticeship

 

[Handymanjo]

Phone them up and explain
Mite be possible for company reference to show he is time served ,if not what about a labourer card ?

 

[bobsuerita]

shouldnt have any problem getting the green or red card

 

[Deleted member 174758]

does anyone know how he can get either a card without an NVQ or how can he get an NVQ without doing an apprenticeship

You'll need to find a local college who have the appropriate funding available to employ an assessor who can undertake an OSAT assessment. OSAT means On-Site Assessment and Training and generally involves the candidate being able to produce references and proof of works over a period, having a health & safety awareness interview (where his depth of knowledge is assessed) and then undertaking a practical test of his skills, over several days. I served my time forty odd years ago, the "old fashioned way" which even back then meant one day a week at college, often plus a couple of evenings a week - this was to do stuff like theory, technical drawing, etc which are part of any proper apprenticeship - and at the end of it I was awarded my City & Guilds (C&G). These days we send apprentices for one day a week to do a C&G/NVQ which will give them an NVQ2 after 2 years study (providing they pass). Anyway, the point is that I left the industry for a number of years before the CSCS cards became more or less mandatory and when I returned I was faced with the CITB (the issuing body) demanding either appropriate NVQs or affidavits from my mentors when I was doing my C&Gs (they wouldn't accept my C&Gs as proof because they were gained prior to 1982.....). So I eventually caved in and went the OSAT route - at the end of which my assessor, who'd seen my C&Gs said, "Congratulations! You're now less qualified than when you vcame out of your time!". In the meantime to get your lad "legal" he will need to sit and pass the CITB Health & Safety assessment (a computer based test) to be legit on site - if he is dyslexic and has medical proof then the examination centre is obliged to take this into account under the DDA (Disability Discrimination Act). You should talk to the CITB about this. Once he has the H&S test done he should apply for a red (trainee) card - although this is only valid for 12 months and cannot be renewed. So, after 12 months if he hasn't got his NVQ (to apply for a blue "experienced tradesman" card) he won't be able to continue working on sites which use the CITB standards (and that's a lot these days). BTW I'm also a bit dsylexic (as anyone reading my posts well knows!), so I have a bit of a feel for what he goes through with it

shouldnt have any problem getting the green or red card

Red card - see above. Valid only 12 months and cannot be renewed. You need to pass the H&S test first before you can apply for it.

Green card (since 2015 when the rules were changed) is for "site occupations" (i.e. labouring) ONLY. So you CAN'T use one for any of the trades any longer (I've had to help a couple of the older guys I've worked with get their blue cards in the last few years because of this change) . The larger sites/major contractors already enforce this and it's gradually working down the "food chain" to the smaller companies and sites. Apparently the big insurers are also insisting on this as well. To get a green card the candidate needs to attend a one day safety course, do (and pass) the test at the end, which gets them an NVQ, which is then used to apply for a card.

To the OP - hope that helps. If you get enough posts up to be able to use the PM (private messaging system) I'd be happy to talk you through this on the phone if you aren't so sure. As to where you can find an OSAT assessor, I afraid can only advise about the North West and parts of West Yorkshire because that's the area I've dealt with.

 

[confused mum]

Thank you so much for your replies. And Job and Knock, my husband, who has also been qualified (C&G) over 40 yrs, has ran jobs and owned his own company for the last 20 yes, was told yesterday that he would also only be able to get a red card and only if he proves he is working towards an NVQ and when that runs out he can apply for a labourers card.
I understand the need for health and safety when working on site, but why does everyone HAVE to be CITB trained, they failed my son back in 2004, we actually complained about them to the DDA for failing him, which is the reason he went the old way via on site training, and now he has to go back to them for his card, it sticks in our throat .

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Ring round the local colleges to see if anyone has got funding for OSAT. If needs be he could drop out of work for a few days, do a couple of days PAYE labouring, get sacked, get a P45 then sign-on. As an unemployed person he'd have a far better chance of either funding a free OSAT assessment or getting the DWP to pay for it. That's the route I was forced to go because initially the college I found wanted £1200 off me (employed), £0 (unemployed). For level 3 they wanted £3200 - which won't be happening anytime soon

All I can say is that it royally hacked me off to be obliged to do an NVQ to get my CSCS - after a 5 year C&G apprenticeship has got to be worth more than a poxy NVQ - but those are the rules. As to qualifications, I've been less than impressed by the staff at several councils I've worked for in the past: all gold card holders (level 3 NVQ), generally quite cocky about it, as I have but a blue card, but lazy, incompetent and feckless almost to a man (with a few outstanding exceptions - however those guys never got anywhere in the council). The system is screwed up, but it's the system, so I've learned to live within it as it's too big to fight. Your husband could always try the age discrimination route (they are discriminating against someone old enough to have taken their qualifications before 1982 despite proofs whilst having withdrawn the grandfather rights), but I don't know of anyone who's succeeded - I certainly didn't, but the law has changed since then

 

[bobsuerita]

Ring round the local colleges to see if anyone has got funding for OSAT. If needs be he could drop out of work for a few days, do a couple of days PAYE labouring, get sacked, get a P45 then sign-on. As an unemployed person he'd have a far better chance of either funding a free OSAT assessment or getting the DWP to pay for it. That's the route I was forced to go because initially the college I found wanted £1200 off me (employed), £0 (unemployed). For level 3 they wanted £3200 - which won't be happening anytime soon

All I can say is that it royally hacked me off to be obliged to do an NVQ to get my CSCS - after a 5 year C&G apprenticeship has got to be worth more than a poxy NVQ - but those are the rules. As to qualifications, I've been less than impressed by the staff at several councils I've worked for in the past: all gold card holders (level 3 NVQ), generally quite cocky about it, as I have but a blue card, but lazy, incompetent and feckless almost to a man (with a few outstanding exceptions - however those guys never got anywhere in the council). The system is screwed up, but it's the system, so I've learned to live within it as it's too big to fight. Your husband could always try the age discrimination route (they are discriminating against someone old enough to have taken their qualifications before 1982 despite proofs whilst having withdrawn the grandfather rights), but I don't know of anyone who's succeeded - I certainly didn't, but the law has changed since then

with city and guilds you should have been given the gold card when cscs first came out gotta be 10years or more my city and guilds over road the nvq as it was a better qualification but they must of changed it now

 

[Deleted member 174758]

with city and guilds you should have been given the gold card when cscs first came out gotta be 10years or more my city and guilds over road the nvq as it was a better qualification but they must of changed it now

Do you know how many people have trotted that self-same story out to me? Firstly, Bob, my C&G level 3 was issued in 1974 - so no equivalent NVQ existed back then (NVQs date from 1981 or 1982 - one of Thatcher's ideas). Secondly, when the CITB were allowing grandfather rights I wasn't directly involved in the construction industry in the UK and therefore didn't need to go on site here, so I really didn't see the need to apply for a CSCS card. Circumstances changed and I went back to working on site in the UK part of the time - after the CITB had closed the grandfather rights scheme. That's when I found out that I was required to have either an NVQ (C&Gs are automatically issued with an NVQ these days) or alternatively I would need to get my mentors as an apprentice to provide afidavits as to my competence. They would not accept my original C&G certificates, nor an official search at the City & Guilds (at a cost of something like £400 to me for all the tickets), nor even my fully completed and signed-off apprenticeship indentures. At the time I was in my 50s, so you can imagine how easy that was going to be to find my mentors (assuming they were still alive the youngest would have been in his 80s - as it happens they weren't still alive or in the case of the one guy who was even in the UK). That left only the option of doing an NVQ using the OSAT route. From talking to others caught in the same sort of trap I know that I'm not alone in having had this experience. I'm told that CITB recently relented in part on this decision (allegedly because someone threatened to take them to court for age discrimination), but TBH I now have a card and it doesn't matter to me what colour it is, so long as it allows me to work. I am no respecter of gold cards because I've had the experience of working with quite a few people who possess them and are utterly useless (not saying that everyone is, just that I've had some experiences) - so when I'm running a job your gold card ,]means nought to me. You still need to prove yourself. As it happens I also have another qualification which theoretically would allow me to get a black card, but TBH the people at CITB are extremely hard work to deal with and last time it took months to make progress, so I cannot be arrissed

 

[bobsuerita]

Yeah they just a money making outfit now like with my lift superviser card they removed banks man slinger from it so you now have to a 2 cards at more expense
Plus all this other smsts rubbish it's getting to the point no one wants too come sites anymore
And they wonder why there is a skill shortage

 

[confused mum]

There's no skill shortage just skilled experienced, qualified men and women who don't want to or can't bend to their (CITB) demands.
It's about time companies make a stand, that way our experienced, skilled workers can do what they have been trained for and our companies are getting the best they can.

 

[bobsuerita]

there is a big shortage of skilled workers half of our jobs dont need cscs cards we pay good day rates and all we get is the floaters that are no good
kids are not interested in carpentry or construction anymore its a good trade
now we keep going to jobs done by unskilled people that are just a shambles and its the way it going

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I'm with Bob on this, there really is a shortage of skilled, able tradesmen in this country.

Instead of training people past governments (and to an extent even this one) have tried to fill the skills gap by sucking in anyone they can to do the jobs from abroad - a short-term policy which has resulted in even less entrants to the trades and sometimes makes construction sites more like a League of Nations than a place of work. There are downsides to that, too, in terms of H&S because some of the dickheads we have to work alongside speak so little English that they cannot understand even the most basic of safety instruction. A grave concern at times. Toolbox talks? Pah! The impression that the general public seem to have is that we are all semi-skilled - government ministers certainly seem to think so based on the making ridiculous statements we've had recently about how they were going to be able train people (in a year or two?) to make good the shortfall when Brexit happens and everyone goes home. This is on the back of a middle class teaching elite who have inculcated their students with the idea that to work in a dirty environment like construction is beneath anyone with a spark of intelligence (I even had that in the late 1960s) and that instead they should go to university and rack-up huge debts so that they can get a white collar job. So instead of joiners, brickies, plumbers, etc that we need, we have actually ended up the best qualified checkout operators in the world (although I'm dubious about the benefits of having a degree in surf management or David Beckham studies - actually “Football Culture” at Staffordshire University - or parapsychology - aka Ghost Busters?)

<Rant off>

 

[big-all]

my sons partner was doing a degree in criminal psychology in jiggy bunnet city
i suggested that perhaps 10% may get a related job in the industry if no other univercities where doing the same course
she is now doing nursing

 

[confused mum]

it was on TV local news the other night that the guy who won best plasterer in the country award had only actually been in the country three years. When he arrived he decided to learn how to plaster, he went on a three week course and achieved his qualifications. Now this is one of the reasons that the public, the country and the government are downgrading the building trades.... There are many men and women within the building trade that have worked for three or four years to become qualified, how on earth can anyone squash all the training these people have had into just three weeks?

 

[endecotp]

Well it seems to have worked, if he's won an award for it.