Load shedding by Smart Meters

[JohnW2]

.... In 2016, it was reported that over 1.6 million teleswitches were in use. .... The Radio Teleswitch Service is broadcast alongside the longwave output of BBC Radio 4 from the Droitwich Transmitting Station..... In 2016 ....... While most suppliers acknowledged the system could ultimately be replaced by smart meter functionality,

I haven't studiesd these things in any detail, but I think there might be some 'chalk and cheese' going on ...

The "Radio Teleswitch Service" is (technologically) very trivial. The signals are simply broadcast by the BBC, using a frequency with very good coverage. Any/all 'receivers' ('teleswitches') can listyen to that signal, and it makes no difference to 'the system' as to whether there are 20 teleswitches or 20 million teleswitches 'listening'.

I may be wrong, but I think that SMETs requires all communications with 'smart' meters to utilise secure handshaking. If that is the case, then communicating, separately, with each of 20+ million meters would be an almost astronomically greater exercise than 'broadcasting to the world'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

well if the SM has a clock in it, then at any time during the day, you could communicate to the SM, switch to E7 at 12 o'clock

It could carry on doing that every day until being told otherwise.


Regarding heavy load switching, the only appliances I can think of worth switching remotely (or cycle on and off out of phase with other houses are)

electric heaters (for houses without gas)
tumble dryers
car charging

Anything else, the loads are small and/or short term, and inconvenience the public too much

 

[JohnW2]

It's too early to say what the solution(s) will be, but I don't believe it will be decades. Remember that for many years the BBC transmitter at Doitwich has been signalling to "economy 7" meters to turn them on and off. There are £billions at stake so somebody will pay for the infrastructure.

See what I've just written in response to Bernard's post. I think that there may be an incredible difference betwween 'broadcasting to the world' and communicating individually (and securely) with millions of meters.

I suspect that it will be a decade or two before even the most basic of 'smart' meter systems is running ';smoothly'. The (probably many) 'decades' I talk of is the timescale for the widespread deployment of 'smart appliances' (or some functional equivalent'

I expect there will also be changes in the tax regime to fill the gap left by fuel duties.

I'm pretty surprised that it hasn't already happened. It would seem as if users of EVs are in for a very big shock before long - it's as if they had got used to being able to buy their favourite tipple for the price of Meths or Industrial Alcohol, but are about to have to pay 'vodka prices' for it

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

At least one brand of domestic gas boilers have the ability to chat to each other and also contact the manufacturer's service department to report faults or tampering that the residents in the house will not report. It is pure hearsay that this facility could be used to modulate boilers down to reduce gas demand at peak periods.

As I said "some may already exist". However, I still think it's likely to be decades before there is (if ever) widespread deployment of 'smart appliances'.

Such appliances, if they ever do become commonplace, would also present all sorts of issues, in relation to 'tamperproofness' and maintenance etc. With some 'simple things' (e.g. immersion heaters), it would presumably require a dramatic change in design to enable them to be even remotely 'secure'

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

well if the SM has a clock in it, then at any time during the day, you could communicate to the SM, switch to E7 at 12 o'clock ... It could carry on doing that every day until being told otherwise.

Indeed. As I have said, 'slow' changes like that would be easy. In fact, it doesn't even need 'smart' meters - the 'broadcast' teleswitch technology could be used. It is anything approaching 'real time' changes in tariffs/timings that would probably be dramatically more challenging.

Regarding heavy load switching, the only appliances I can think of worth switching remotely (or cycle on and off out of phase with other houses are) ... electric heaters (for houses without gas) ... tumble dryers ... car charging ... Anything else, the loads are small and/or short term, and inconvenience the public too much

'The list' can obviously be debated, but that's just a matter of detail. For what it's worth, in my house around a third of my total electricity consumption relates to water heating (immersion) and I suspect that the tumble drying is probably responsible for a significant proportion of the rest.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

I haven't studiesd these things in any detail, but I think there might be some 'chalk and cheese' going on ...

The "Radio Teleswitch Service" is (technologically) very trivial. The signals are simply broadcast by the BBC, using a frequency with very good coverage. Any/all 'receivers' ('teleswitches') can listyen to that signal, and it makes no difference to 'the system' as to whether there are 20 teleswitches or 20 million teleswitches 'listening'.

I may be wrong, but I think that SMETs requires all communications with 'smart' meters to utilise secure handshaking. If that is the case, then communicating, separately, with each of 20+ million meters would be an almost astronomically greater exercise than 'broadcasting to the world'!

Kind Regards, John

The BBC no longer owns any transmitters, they were all sold off a while ago. Surely they no longer have any say as to whether valves are remanufactured or replaced.

 

[JohnD]

communicating individually (and securely) with millions of meters.

It might not need to.

it only needs to send: "Tariff rate A" "Tariff rate B" etc. and perhaps a start and/or end time.

You might be a person whose contract is 20p per kWh at all times, or whose contract is 10p rate A, 50p rate B. The sender doesn't need to know.

If you have an electric car to charge you might opt for the tariff with extra control. Your charging device might be under the control of the signal. Again, the sender doesn't need to know who you are or what terms you have.

 

[AndyPRK]

I think the list is important. As when you start to think about it, the list of things you can turn off for a short while without the customer being bothered isn't very long. And probably only applies to non gas homes.

I thought the BBC transmitter valves were on their last legs, so we really need to move away from that solution and get more modern

 

[JohnD]

I thought the BBC transmitter valves were on their last legs, so we really need to move away from that solution and get more modern

A system that broadcasts tariff changes from time to time need not depend on BBC transmiiters. The government would be delighted to sell some frequency capacity to anyone willing to pay. You just need a technology that can send signals, and a technology that can receive them.

If the smart meters have web connection that's one of the options.

 

[MattChan]

Although not exactly the same and I'm not sure how interested you chaps are but the guys at kiwi powered have been doing demand - response control in the UK for a long time now and it seems to work very well. https://www.kiwipowered.com

 

[ban-all-sheds]

With some 'simple things' (e.g. immersion heaters), it would presumably require a dramatic change in design to enable them to be even remotely 'secure'

But then the simpler the thing the easier it would be to add "smart" functionality to it, and hence to the installed base, by creating "smart" FCUs or external switches.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

electric heaters (for houses without gas)

Which will be all of them (subject to replacement/scrappage regimes) if gas appliances are done away with (unless we can find a way to produce and consume gas without emitting greenhouse gases).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Interestingly I've seen over the last few days, AFAIR for the first time, promotions of smart meters hinting at them being part of the solution to the climate change problem.

Ooohh look - a bandwagon - let's jump on it.

 

[JohnW2]

It might not need to. it only needs to send: "Tariff rate A" "Tariff rate B" etc. and perhaps a start and/or end time.

As I said, that sort of 'broadcast information' (conceptually the same as 'teleswitches') is child's play. However, as I said, I have a think that SMETS requires security handshakes (in both directions) with each individual meter - which, if the case, would change a totally trivial exercise into a very major one.

If you have an electric car to charge you might opt for the tariff with extra control. Your charging device might be under the control of the signal.

EV charging is a whole different issue, since a way is going to have to be found to specifically apply the equivalent of petrol/diesel excise duty to charges for it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I think the list is important. As when you start to think about it, the list of things you can turn off for a short while without the customer being bothered isn't very long.

It's the things about which the customer would be bothered (like their oven on Christmas Day) which some people seem most worried/paranoid about!

I thought the BBC transmitter valves were on their last legs, so we really need to move away from that solution and get more modern

True, on both counts. However, in the context of the extraordinarily high cost of all this 'smart' meter business, the cost of producing a modern (valveless ) transmitter would be totally trivial, were that the way they wanted to go.

Kind Regards, John