Load shedding by Smart Meters

[JohnW2]

That is what seems to be in the pipeline.

As I said, it's certainly what some people think (and fear) is in the pipeline.

Although I personally doubt that measures as draconian as some of those being discussed will actually happen, there does seem to be a lack of rationality on the part of some of the 'protesters'. I presume that everyone would like to avoid a situation (such as we have seen in the past) in which people will periodically completely lose their electricity supply for periods of time, but the supply/demand equation is moving us closer to the situation in which such will become more probable. However, given that the supply side of the equation is certainly not going to be sorted out in the foreseeable future, it seems odd that some people seem to passionately object to all suggestions as to ways in which demand could (and might have to be) reduced.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

by raising the price during the "prohibited" periods, your tariff includes, effectively, the "fine" to punish ...

True, but the trouble is that, unless the system got even more technologically complex (hence even further over the horizon), one would have to pay that 'fine' in relation to all electricity one used during that period, not just that used for the high loads that one really wanted to 'prohibit' at the time.

Even though those other loads which would attract 'fines' would mainly be fairly small, if the electricity cost during that period was made "prohibitively high" (so as to make the intended 'fines' meaningful to 'average people') even such activities as boiling a kettle at such a time could become quite a significant expense!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

They are NOT BBC transmitter valves. As I have already said the BBC don't own any transmitters. That being the case it is up to the present owners (can't remember who they are now) to keep the transmitter running even if it means getting replacements made.

This is really an unnecessary distraction. I'm sure that the spirit of the original comment was intended to refer to "those who now own the transmitters", regardless of who they may be.

This also seems pretty irrelevant to the present discussion, anyway, since we are clearly committed to going down the 'smart' meter route, with no suggestions that there would need to be any reliance on long-wave radio transmissions for cointrol of electrical installations once the smart meter system is (if it ever is) 'fully up and running).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What about reliance on the R4 long-wave service vis-a-vis the letters of last resort carried on nuclear subs?


But back to the plot - "smart" load shedding would require such a change in the nature of the entire installed base of appliances that it could never become a reality. Assuming that everybody had appliances which could be turned off by outside control would, as you say, invite circumvention, if only by people simply not having any such appliances.


But they could introduce the carrot (stick) of non-linear pricing pricing which made it in the customer's interest to provide his own load-shedding facility, which could be fairly crude, as the French system currently is, or could if he wanted, (and if products were available) involve more sophisticated negotiation between his appliances and/or the meter.


The only "big-brother" disconnection regime more sophisticated than cutting you off completely which I can envisage is cutting you off completely if you use more than X.

 

[bernardgreen]

Two consumer units. One permanently supplied. the other one supplied by a supply that the smart meter can switch ON or OFF by commands sent by SMS texts.

This would ( will ) require legislation to ensure that law abiding citizens had their sheddable loads connected to the second consumer unit.

 

[JohnW2]

... "smart" load shedding would require such a change in the nature of the entire installed base of appliances that it could never become a reality. Assuming that everybody had appliances which could be turned off by outside control would, as you say, invite circumvention, if only by people simply not having any such appliances.

Quite so. The paranoid amongst us seem to envisage an era when such appliances would be 'compulsory' - i.e. other appliances would not work. However, I really can't see that happening, st lats not for a few generation!

... But they could introduce the carrot (stick) of non-linear pricing pricing which made it in the customer's interest to provide his own load-shedding facility, which could be fairly crude, as the French system currently is, or could if he wanted, (and if products were available) involve more sophisticated negotiation between his appliances and/or the meter.

Indeed - and I would say that such a 'voluntary' system would be far less sinister than what some people seems to fear. I don't see that as materially different from giving people the option to buy cheap/peak 'off-peak' rail tickets, holidays etc., if they so wish.

 

[JohnW2]

Two consumer units. One permanently supplied. the other one supplied by a supply that the smart meter can switch ON or OFF by commands sent by SMS texts. This would ( will ) require legislation to ensure that law abiding citizens had their sheddable loads connected to the second consumer unit.

As I keep saying, preventing 'tampering with' any such systems would be next-to-impossible, and would certainly require a whole new approach to the wiring of installations - something which, again, would take many decades to implement.

Given the enormous scale, duration and expense of any such exercise, one would hope that, if anything like that ever happened, it would at least be a lot more sophisticated ('smart')/flexible than you suggest - since simultaneous disabling all of the loads connected to such a 'secondary CU' would usually be neither necessary nor desirable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Load shedding ( whole house, district wide ) occurs in Australia and other countries.

The ability to load shed ( partial house, disrict wide ) is seen as the next step. A necessary next step as whole house load shedding menas vital equipment ( medical, safety ) loses power.

 

[JohnW2]

Load shedding ( whole house, district wide ) occurs in Australia and other countries.

Indeed, but you seem to merely be repeating what you wrote when you started this thread 6 pages ago!

It goes without saying that if there are times when demand exceeds the maximum possible supply, there is literally no alternative to reducing demand, by 'switching off' some of the loads.

Things are getting a bit more complicated, since there is now more unpredictability on the supply side as well as the demand side. With 'traditional' forms of electricity generation we knew (subject only to possible 'breakdowns' etc.) exactly what the maximum supply capacity was. Now, with an increasing reliance on 'renewable sources', we are more 'in the laps of the gods'!

As I write, 14.3% of UK electricity supply is coming from solar and 6.4% from wind. Meteorological changes resulting in the sudden appearance of lots of 'black clouds' or the sudden lulling of winds could produce quite rapid and marked changes in the amount of electricity available from such sources - so that if all other sources were running 'at full capacity', that change could be the last straw in pushing us into an absolute supply/demand problem.

The ability to load shed ( partial house, disrict wide ) is seen as the next step. A necessary next step as whole house load shedding menas vital equipment ( medical, safety ) loses power.

I think too much mileage is probably being made out of these 'vital equipment' issues. If equipment is so vital/crucial that lives and major safety issues depend upon it, then provision needs to be made for coping with 'accidental', as well as 'deliberate', loss of power.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ironsidebod]

I think too much mileage is probably being made out of these 'vital equipment' issues. If equipment is so vital/crucial that lives and major safety issues depend upon it, then provision needs to be made for coping with 'accidental', as well as 'deliberate', loss of power.

Kind Regards, John

It is in place currently though would need changes in a load shedding scenario. In the event of an outage the provider is round pretty sharpish with a generator. If you're on the list of harm to life in the event of power loss then I suspect they arrive even sooner.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If equipment is so vital/crucial that lives and major safety issues depend upon it, then provision needs to be made for coping with 'accidental', as well as 'deliberate', loss of power.

It is.

My mum had an oxygen concentrator, and was on some priority list with her DNO. If a service interruption was going to last longer than her backup cylinder then AFIAK they'd rock up with a generator.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Indeed - and I would say that such a 'voluntary' system would be far less sinister than what some people seems to fear. I don't see that as materially different from giving people the option to buy cheap/peak 'off-peak' rail tickets, holidays etc., if they so wish.

Yup.

And could be introduced via standing charge tiers. The equipment needed in people's homes is already tried and tested in other countries, requires no smart metering because it operates all of the time, and gives the generators a known hard limit on demand.

 

[JohnW2]

It is. My mum had an oxygen concentrator, and was on some priority list with her DNO. If a service interruption was going to last longer than her backup cylinder then AFIAK they'd rock up with a generator.

Indeed - and that's the same point made by ironsidebod. I'm aware of the Priority Services Register, and that is precisely what I was alluding to - i.e. that there is already provision for dealing with loss of electricity supplies to life-crucial or safety-crucial equipment - whether the power loss be accidental or 'deliberate'.

 

[bernardgreen]

roll out delayed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49721436

 

[JP_]

Glad I ignored EONs many requests to install in my house. I had a smart meter in previous house, total waste of time and money, and nothing smart about it.