Load shedding by Smart Meters

[SimonH2]

It is part of the spec for meters to be able to communicate to other devices over the HAN. This could be a machine (eg tumble drier) with built-in comms, or it could be a simple relay (eg connected to an immersion heater). This is specifically to allow for load shedding/load control.
The grand idea is that when the kettles go on at half time, nationwide there is a massive switch off of optional loads. Immersion heaters will go off, fridges & freezers will temporarily raise their setpoints, washing machines & tumble driers will pause mid-cycle, etc. When kettles have finushed, things will go back to normal.

 

[AndyPRK]

Core that sounds great. Have they implemented that ?

 

[bernardgreen]

When kettles have finushed, things will go back to normal.

Normal to me is when I am in control. When the machines take over mankind will become slaves.

 

[SimonH2]

Have they implemented that ?

This is the project where they can't even get the meters and comms system to work reliably. What do you think

 

[AndyPRK]

I thought that maybe the answer

Where’s John ? Has he been banned?

 

[JohnW2]

I thought that maybe the answer ... Where’s John ? Has he been banned?

Goodness - I've been away for a couple of days, that's all I suppose it's nice to be missed, though!

It is part of the spec for meters to be able to communicate to other devices over the HAN. This could be a machine (eg tumble drier) with built-in comms, or it could be a simple relay (eg connected to an immersion heater). This is specifically to allow for load shedding/load control. .... The grand idea is that when the kettles go on at half time, nationwide there is a massive switch off of optional loads. Immersion heaters will go off, fridges & freezers will temporarily raise their setpoints, washing machines & tumble driers will pause mid-cycle, etc. When kettles have finished, things will go back to normal.

As I've said many times before, given 'where we are now' (and how long it's taken us to get to that point), not only don't I think that 'smart appliances' will come into widespread use (if they appear at all) in my lifetime, but I doubt that it will happen during the lifetimes of (m)any of those reading this.

... and any controlling/communicating really would have to be included within ('smart') 'appliances' (even if things as basic as immersions) - since if it were done by "a simple relay (eg connected to an immersion heater)" separate from the appliance/load, they would have to go around installing relays with communication facilities all over every installation the the country, as well as installing the 'smart' meters (which, alone, appears to be taking decades!).

I really think that people who are around today would probably be best advised to find something different (and more likely to happen during their lifetimes) to worry and/or get paranoid about!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

... and any controlling/communicating really would have to be included within ('smart') 'appliances'

That would have to be the case with most white goods since just cutting the power to them would (for most appliances these days) result in the appliance not knowing where it had got to and needing manual intervention to re-start.

since if it were done by "a simple relay (eg connected to an immersion heater)" separate from the appliance/load, they would have to go around installing relays with communication facilities all over every installation the the country, as well as installing the 'smart' meters (which, alone, appears to be taking decades!).

"They" would not need to do it, it could be done by any electrician or even as a plug in device (lie a lot of the "smart socket" adapters already available. It would only need pairing to the HAN on the user side, so not nearly as security sensitive as the meter-WAN connection.
The biggest issue would be how to provide an incentive to users to have it done - the answer there probably being some combination of tariff savings (carrot) and it being an alternative to them being subject to full disconnection (stick). That is likely to be the end point - lots of partial load shedding or full disconnections, with those supporting load shedding having the carrot of being at the bottom of the list for full disconnections.

I really think that people who are around today would probably be best advised to find something different (and more likely to happen during their lifetimes) to worry and/or get paranoid about!!

But where's the fun in that

 

[JohnW2]

That would have to be the case with most white goods since just cutting the power to them would (for most appliances these days) result in the appliance not knowing where it had got to and needing manual intervention to re-start.

That's certainly true of many 'white goods', but not in the case of many of the things (electric space heaters, immersions, showers etc.) which probably represent the largest potential loads.

"They" would not need to do it, it could be done by any electrician or even as a plug in device (lie a lot of the "smart socket" adapters already available. It would only need pairing to the HAN on the user side, so not nearly as security sensitive as the meter-WAN connection.

I cannot see that being practical. If, as was being discussed, the purpose was to facilitate 'involuntary disabling' of certain loads at certain times (and/or under certain circumstances), then it would presumably have to be 'tamper-proof' - which means that, if it were done by a 'box' external to the load, the wiring between that an the load would have to be inaccessible (and anything 'plug-in' would clearly not serve that purpose) - and 'policing' the situation would probably also be impractical.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

That's certainly true of many 'white goods', but not in the case of many of the things (electric space heaters, immersions, showers etc.) which probably represent the largest potential loads.
I cannot see that being practical. If, as was being discussed, the purpose was to facilitate 'involuntary disabling' of certain loads at certain times (and/or under certain circumstances), then it would presumably have to be 'tamper-proof' - which means that, if it were done by a 'box' external to the load, the wiring between that an the load would have to be inaccessible (and anything 'plug-in' would clearly not serve that purpose) - and 'policing' the situation would probably also be impractical.

Kind Regards, John

I envisage that a message will be sent to your immersion heater telling it to turn off at about the same time as the tariff price increases.

If it continues to use power, you will simply pay more. The current "smart" meters don't seem to have that ability. But maybe they can transmit a command signal to appliances or in-house controllers in this or a future version. They can probably receive and act on a command to change the tariff.

In the same way that billionaires can park on yellow lines and drive in bus lanes. They just pay the fines. If you, or your home management system, don't turn off appliances, you will pay more.

 

[SimonH2]

The main thing is, for the "smart" meter project to work, it has to be able to reduce demand when the windmills aren't working well. At the moment, the only mechanisms being "not talked about" in all the promotional stuff is temporary price hikes and involuntary full disconnection. I think there may be some waffle about running things like washing machines and tumble driers at night, but so far that seems to be just waffle - and relying on local decisions based on pricing.
There is a fair comparison with E7 and similar tariffs. The wiring to storage heater loads is not tamperproof - but if you decide to over-ride the signal from the teleswitch then you pay through higher costs. When "smart" meters become ubiquitous, then I think we can look forward to such tariffs being "re invented".
As it is, they are struggling to even get the most basic elements of the system working. The chances of them getting the useful bits (like voluntary load shedding) working before it's actually needed (not that far away given how existing nuclear plants are reaching end of life and new ones aren't appearing any time soon) are less than "rather slim"

As JohnW2 says, all this discussion is rather moot at the moment

 

[JohnW2]

I envisage that a message will be sent to your immersion heater telling it to turn off at about the same time as the tariff price increases. ... If it continues to use power, you will simply pay more.

That would be more practical, and would not require the same tamper-proofing and/or 'policing', but it's not what was being suggested.

In the same way that billionaires can park on yellow lines and drive in bus lanes. They just pay the fines. If you, or your home management system, don't turn off appliances, you will pay more.

That's presumably why some people are fantasising about more draconian systems which theoretically could arise (in the very distant future). If one's high-load appliances were 'forcefully' disabled (rather than merely being charged at high rate) at times of high network demand, then even the billionaires could not escape that - but, as I've said, I think its probably very fanciful (and probably impractical).

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

If you're a billionaire, you can line your garage with huge storage batteries.

Currently they are marketed for people with big solar arrays to charge up in daytime to run loads after sundown, but you could load-balance to avoid peak pricing.

(I had a look and it is not currently an economically viable proposition).

Depending on future prices of energy and storage, it may become profitable or necessary.

 

[JohnW2]

... I think there may be some waffle about running things like washing machines and tumble driers at night, but so far that seems to be just waffle - and relying on local decisions based on pricing.

I can (and do) currently do that with E7, as part of the means of making E7 financially worthwhile for me, but I can only do that ('safely'), particularly in summer) because I am pretty nocturnal in my lifestyle. For most people, running appliances, particularly tumble driers, whilst they were asleep would be regard as a safety risk.

There is a fair comparison with E7 and similar tariffs. The wiring to storage heater loads is not tamperproof - but if you decide to over-ride the signal from the teleswitch then you pay through higher costs. When "smart" meters become ubiquitous, then I think we can look forward to such tariffs being "re invented".

Yes, but that only really works when the timings of tariff changes are relatively fixed/predictable, and wouldn't really work with 'dynamic' tariff changes, since know-one is going to spend their life continually interrogating their meter to ascertain the price of electricity at each point in time

As JohnW2 says, all this discussion is rather moot at the moment

Quite so. As I've said, possibly of relevance to our children and grandchildren, but probably not 'us'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

since know-one is going to spend their life continually interrogating their meter to ascertain the price of electricity at each point in time

That part could be made much more user friendly, via the indoor display. The suppliers know when peak demand will occur, with a minimum of green energy available and just just let the consumer know when cheap energy will be available so they can make best use of it. Likewise when the expensive energy will be available.

 

[JohnW2]

That part could be made much more user friendly, via the indoor display. The suppliers know when peak demand will occur, with a minimum of green energy available and just just let the consumer know when cheap energy will be available so they can make best use of it. Likewise when the expensive energy will be available.

Yes, I really that is (probably the intention) but I still don't think that most people are very likely to look at the display to determine the current electricity cost before deciding whether to switch on their kettle, shower, drier, immersion or whatever!

Kind Regards, John