who is responsible to replace the main electrical core in a leasehold flat

[2352]

Hello,
I have a question regarding the replacement of the main service core, from the fuse to the meter, in a flat in an old building I'm rewiring, which is a leasehold. My electrician says the main core is an old one and not of the right amperage for the new rewiring/electrical set up. The question is, does the freehold have a duty to upgrade an old main core to current reg now that I've rewired my flat? Is there a risk that if I don't upgrade the main core then I'll have problems with the new electric system in my home? Thanks.

 

[chivers67]

Up to the meter is the responsibility of your supplier. Have you a photo of your cut out / intake with the fuse carrier etc?

How much demand is your electrician expecting your flat to use? Have you all electric heating & water?

 

[SUNRAY]

Hello,
I have a question regarding the replacement of the main service core, from the fuse to the meter, in a flat in an old building I'm rewiring, which is a leasehold. My electrician says the main core is an old one and not of the right amperage for the new rewiring/electrical set up. The question is, does the freehold have a duty to upgrade an old main core to current reg now that I've rewired my flat? Is there a risk that if I don't upgrade the main core then I'll have problems with the new electric system in my home? Thanks.

If your freholder were to replace the cable, who do you think would end up paying for it?

The way it works is freeholders expenses are passed on the the leasholders, usually with a mark-up, typically of 10%-20% and could have VAT on that too.
As Chivers says we'd need to know exactly what you have there before we can offer electrical advice, even then it's a very tricky one to assess remotely.

 

[aptsys]

Up to the meter is the responsibility of your supplier. Have you a photo of your cut out / intake with the fuse carrier etc?

How much demand is your electrician expecting your flat to use? Have you all electric heating & water?

Not in the case of a system where the meter is remote from the cut-out. This is the responsibility of the property owner.

 

[2352]

Hello and thanks for everyone's inputs. Apologies in advance for the long post.
The fuse where the service cable starts is located in a cupboard in the building ground hall. My flat is also a ground floor flat and the distance from this cupboard and my flat is only few meters away. Other than the amperage issue I raised earlier, there is a problem with this service cable in that is very old and three electricians have declined the meter repositioning job due to a risk of damaging it, they said the cable will fail when handled. This cable enters my flat above the entry door, it runs through the ceiling joists and has several bending and twists until it descend to the meter (see pictures). The council is opposing the replacement of the cable on cost grounds also claiming that it's inconvenient for other occupants as the power network people need to be involved to disconnect the block (although I spoke to uk power networks twice and twice they told me that's not their job, it's the freehold's job to disconnect the block). The council offered to bring their team to reposition the meter using the same service cable; however, they also said that there may be functionality issues due to the cable not having the right amperage for the flat specifications. The flat is 1 bed and has not electrical UFH. All lighting are downlights 40 in total 30 watts each (not LED - I'm reusing old fittings and I have a stock of old gu 5.3 12v 30w) All the rest is usual domestic appliances. Shower is not electric. I certainly don't want to have functionality issues on a flat i'm renovating! The council ultimately told me that replacing the service cable will cost me 1,5k which is a lot of money for the job. I'd like to hear especially from aptsys where I can learn more about freeholder's responsibility on costs associated to this job. Equally, if I accept the repositioning of the existing cable, will I have functionality problems? Thanks.

 

[OwainDIYer]

I can't judge the cable condition from the photo, but it's MICC / pyro cable which can run at significantly higher currents for the conductor size compared to PVC insulated cable, provided the terminals can take the higher temperature.

If you can find an electrician with imperial MICC tools and spare fittings it can be reterminated to a proper metal adaptable box and double-insulated meter tails taken to the meter.

The single-insulated cores are not acceptable outside an enclosure and I'm not happy about the earth strap either.

 

[SUNRAY]

Not in the case of a system where the meter is remote from the cut-out. This is the responsibility of the property owner.

As this is potentially an Issue I may encounter as a landlord I phoned EDF UKPN (And told the story that I have this issue) They have informed me I must not touch anything upto and including the meter as it is their property, however they are saying it will be chargeable to upgrade unless it's in a dangerous state.

I find it quite remarkable you (and your electrician) are re-fitting 30w downlighters, in fact if these are being cut into the ceilings I'm surprised you have the approval from your freeholder, they may be contrary to the fire/safety precautions in the property.

 

[Astra99]

Are there two different meters in the pictures above? One in the "meter room" where the service to all the flats come in, and a second one in your lat immediately before your distribution board? Would it be possible to get a full on picture of the second one above, the one with circuit breakers at the top, and meter (without terminal cover) at the bottom?

 

[SUNRAY]

Are there two different meters in the pictures above? One in the "meter room" where the service to all the flats come in, and a second one in your lat immediately before your distribution board? Would it be possible to get a full on picture of the second one above, the one with circuit breakers at the top, and meter (without terminal cover) at the bottom?

I see three pictures of the same meter, 2 of which are without the terminal cover.

Have I missed something else?

 

[flameport]

(not LED - I'm reusing old fittings and I have a stock of old gu 5.3 12v 30w)

You can forget about using those.
Installation of halogen lamps won't comply with building regulations, halogen lamps are not being made or imported since September this year so replacements won't be available for much longer, and if you were thinking of renting this property out you won't get an energy performance certificate with a suitable rating either.

The existing cable is very likely suitable for continued use, provided the ends are reterminated properly.

they said the cable will fail when handled

It won't fail.
The end pot may need to be redone, but the cable itself is pretty much indestructible.

The most suitable fix for what's there is for that cable to be connected into a red link cutout, the meter relocated to the left and new double insulated tails added from the cutout to the meter.
Size of the cable and fuse rating at the other end will also need to be confirmed.

 

[SUNRAY]

Can you accurately measure the outer diameter of that main copper cable?

 

[2352]

You can forget about using those.
Installation of halogen lamps won't comply with building regulations

Hi, that's not an issue as I can re-lamp the fittings with MR16 LED lamps

 

[2352]

Not in the case of a system where the meter is remote from the cut-out. This is the responsibility of the property owner.

Thanks for this,
The freeholder is going to facilitate the installation of a new service cable, however they advised that all cost will be passed on to me. I think this is unfair on the basis that the existing cable is really old and no sparky I called in wanted to do the job on the basis of possible failure of the cable. Especially as aptsys says that in the event the cutout is remote from the meter then the freeholder is responsible anyway for replacing the service cable. How can find more about this so i can produce evidence that freeholder should pay for it and not the leaseholder in this case? Thanks.

 

[SUNRAY]

Thanks for this,
The freeholder is going to facilitate the installation of a new service cable, however they advised that all cost will be passed on to me. I think this is unfair on the basis that the existing cable is really old and no sparky I called in wanted to do the job on the basis of possible failure of the cable. Especially as aptsys says that in the event the cutout is remote from the meter then the freeholder is responsible anyway for replacing the service cable. How can find more about this so i can produce evidence that freeholder should pay for it and not the leaseholder in this case? Thanks.

I assume you are the leaseholder, can I suggest you read your lease, that will tell you precisely who's responsible for the cable and who's responsible for the cost and how that cost is passed on to you.

 

[ericmark]

no sparky I called in wanted to do the job

Not surprised at that, I would not want to do the job either, I did terminating mineral cable some 50 odd years ago in collage, and have never done it since, so I would want to sub contract to some one use to working with mineral insulated cable.

I know the theory, but well out of practice, every job I have done with mineral cable there has been some one on the pay role who has done it before, so simply never needed to do it.

If I was doing a re-wire and it needed doing as part of the re-wire I would try to subcontract it out, only if forced would I do it, and since I have non of the tools, it would be expensive.

If for example wiring a church and all cables were mineral insulated it may be worth getting the tools, but for one odd cable I would do my best to get out of it. And I would guess most domestic electricians would do the same, and commercial electricians are likely not scheme members so will also back heal the job.