Immigration Crisis

[Pat ex]

In the NGO situation they are accused of picking up illegals many miles away from Italian and greek waters, who are not in distress and taking them to Italy, Greece etc often in collusion with the traffickers. Here we have a breach of law which would also be the same if it were in the UK (we have similar anti-facilitation laws).

The non refoulement requirements of the UNHCR covers that issue. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default...foulementUnderInternationalHumanRightsLaw.pdf
To return them to Libya (or other such countries) would be returning them to potentially hostile environments.

You can't go picking people up of the coast of somewhere else and ferry them to a UK or European port without placing yourself at risk of protection. If they are in danger and need assistance you can rescue them and take them to their nearest safe port.

Not if that nearest port is considered unsafe for refugees. non refoulement!

Its like the basic RAC service - it excludes onward travel, just a tow to the garage.

Bu the RAC would have duty to tow you to a safe harbour, and absolutely not tow you to an unsafe place.

 

[ajohn]

No it's you. Lets say that a French boat picks these people up after they have entered uk water and then takes them to the nearest port that happens to be a UK one. We don't know what condition this boat was in. Was the engine running or was it swamped? It was in an iffy position in terms of who's water it was in. Then comes that the UK did send a ship. What was it going to do if it turned out to be in French water?

If you can't gather that from what I posted I feel sorry for you. However I am sure you can. You often pontificate in this particular area and ignore factual rules as they don't suite you. Your an expert etc trying to find a solution. Best left to experts in this area aware of all factors.

This particular drowning incident could be seen to be purely down to the assist law you mention. In fact if taken to the extreme and some rescue boat gets there they wait for people to be in real trouble to ensure they are doing the correct "legal" thing, It's wriggling again and not a solution to the basic problem.

The rules at sea are written in a way that relates to commercial vessels. The nearest port becomes their next port of call not the nearest and is mentioned in respect to collisions. However it is the convention that the gov choose to use when discussing push back.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/is-turning-back-migrants-at-sea-compatible-with-international-law/

Which includes the comment
Article 25 of the Convention does allow states to prevent passage in their territorial waters, including to prohibit crime, smuggling, or breaching immigration rules. If such tactics were to put vessels in danger, the obligations for search and rescue still apply.

The or breaching immigration rules is odd as a refugee is fundamentally illegal as has been mentioned before. More wriggling. They remain like they are because there really isn't any international laws saying they can not do what they currently do other than apply for leave to stay where they intend to go as they don't have other options. That is what is happening. No country would accept first safe country they come into as they may get more to process and accept or reject. All accept some anyway want them or not. Even Italy. The refoulement rule, Seems we have tried asking if other safe countries will accept them. Seems Rwanda will but their reports say they only expect a few hundreds. We still have large numbers to process. We give Rwanda aid to encourage that and they only have limited accommodation for them, Maybe as more come they will live in grass huts, after all it's in Africa and a country with limited resources.

All countries wriggle really and handle it all on a humanitarian basis They process and handle the ones that apply there. Refoulement means that many can not be returned to the country they came from.

Seems we have recently had net migration of 1/2 a million arrivals. The breakdown of who they are is interesting. In excess of 200,000 of them are students. Some are via a sort of refugee visa scheme. Some have work permits. A different perspective of the "problem" if that is what it is, Far more people involved.

NGO's have shadowed people crossing the med - according to reports anyway. Just what is their next port of call interpreted as the convention suggests?

The behaviour of inflatables has it's interesting aspects. They float if not holed. They may even float with a lot of water in them or when upside down. Cold water has unpleasant results if in it too long ending in death. The sea is often cold enough to do that,

One of the people drowned was coming across to join a relative who has already migrated. Chances are he would have been accepted,

 

[motorbiking]

Inflatables are shallow draught and with occupants they have a large area subject to wind.
The average wind in the channel is a South Westerly. That would tend to blow them up the channel toward UK.

You appear to be agreeing with me?

i.e. that its unlikely that wind or tide would take a vessel in UK water back to French water.

The heading would be around 300°. That heading would be good for slack +-2 hours assuming they can make the crossing in 3-4 hours. At all other times Tide would be the dominant factor and there isn't much chance of it taking a vessel in to French waters from UK waters.

 

[Pat ex]

You appear to be agreeing with me?

i.e. that its unlikely that wind or tide would take a vessel in UK water back to French water.

The heading would be around 300°. That heading would be good for slack +-2 hours assuming they can make the crossing in 3-4 hours. At all other times Tide would be the dominant factor and there isn't much chance of it taking a vessel in to French waters from UK waters.

I don't know what your claim was, as to where, or on what heading the boat was drifting.
I'm merely pointing out that the boat would probably have drifted towards the UK side, rather than toward the French side.
Other than that I am awaiting the outcome of the investigation.
I do note that the French have provided all the required documentation, but the UK has not.
In addition the UK investigation is not expected to complete for another six months. We're now 12 months after the initial incident, and the UK enquiry started 10 months ago.
The DfT has not yet started and will not be open to public scrutiny.

It's beginning to look like the boat was in UK waters.

A MAIB spokesperson said: “It is important we examine whether the UK’s emergency response was appropriate that night once it became apparent that migrant boats might be in distress in UK waters

Inquiry into worst Channel disaster for 30 years fails to contact victims’ families

At least 27 people died when their dinghy capsized in November 2021, but the UK investigation has yet to talk to their relatives

www.theguardian.com

 

[ajohn]

i.e. that its unlikely that wind or tide would take a vessel in UK water back to French water.

The more important aspect with the drownings is the other way round - French to UK water.
Then comes was the boat part swamped / was the engine running etc.

The guardian reports the boat was mostly deflated when found.

 

[Pat ex]

Definitely. We brought first world civilisation to many previously hopeless, basket-case countries. Stark examples are places like South Africa or Rhodesia where the natives benefitted immensely from our ancestors' efforts. Unfortunately the ungrateful b'stards took what they gave them then chucked us out, aided by libertard n'er-do-wells. Now they're in a desperate struggle to return to their crime-ridden, malnourished, s*it in a hole in the ground origins. No doubt they will bleat that it's all the nasty white man's fault while expecting them to bail them out and feed them.

Colonisation taught them how to be brutal dictators, while it was ravaging the country.
It needed civilising so much that European countries were fighting over access to its riches.
You call that delivering civilisation?

 

[Pat ex]

, blame immigration.

Is the rallying call of the Tories and the gullible.

 

[ajohn]

Stark examples are places like South Africa or Rhodesia where the natives benefitted immensely from our ancestors efforts

Who were exploited mostly for what they had around them. Much bought here to be worked on or even sold for profit as it comes. That is what colonialism is all about. It also explains the wars and fighting that went on. It's also why money was spent in these countries. The UK wasn't the only country doing the same thing. Many wanted empires for this very reason and no other.

More recent changes mean you could say that a particular style of government was left behind. Prior to that some degree of education and humanitarian help - medical. Mostly thanks to religion and trying to convert people to Christianity etc. Help may also still be given to ex colonies by some. Eg France trying to sort out fighting in one of their ex colonies. Hasn't worked out.

Then comes land grab wars. Totally different area.

Crops have been transferred out of their original area to other suitable places. The stuff can be grown there and nice cheap labour. One of those was achieved by a raid on a Dutch colony, seedlings taken. The Dutch had build some rather hefty defences to keep us out. This resulted in a drop in price of the crop. That would upset the Dutch. This is why some of these places still have forts etc. Coffee went to India in a similar way and to other areas.

The only person I have knowingly met that went to Eaton had grandfather who worked for the East India Company. They could afford a servant. No idea what his dad did. The house had been there before an estate was built rather close so they decided to move. It wasn't that great a place. They didn't sell the house. They knocked it down and built a block of flats on the entire plot. Still plenty of money around.

One of the reasons places such as Eaton are around is for heads of families that work abroad in this period. Might be government or things such as the East India Company. Nice place for the rich to send their children too. I wonder if it's because they only see them during holidays but it has other effects.

Not that I feel that this should mean that these people should get the money back.

 

[motorbiking]

I don't know what your claim was, as to where, or on what heading the boat was drifting.
I'm merely pointing out that the boat would probably have drifted towards the UK side, rather than toward the French side.
Other than that I am awaiting the outcome of the investigation.
I do note that the French have provided all the required documentation, but the UK has not.
In addition the UK investigation is not expected to complete for another six months. We're now 12 months after the initial incident, and the UK enquiry started 10 months ago.
The DfT has not yet started and will not be open to public scrutiny.

It's beginning to look like the boat was in UK waters.

Inquiry into worst Channel disaster for 30 years fails to contact victims’ families

At least 27 people died when their dinghy capsized in November 2021, but the UK investigation has yet to talk to their relatives

www.theguardian.com

Why would the UK Marine accident investigation board report on an accident outside the waters of their jurisdiction? They appear to be awaiting the outcome of the French investigation to determine if the vessel was reportedly in distress in UK waters.

MAIB provide excellent and fair reports fairly quickly with the purpose of learning lessons to avoid loss of life. It normally only takes a few weeks:

Marine Accident Investigation Branch reports

Find reports of MAIB investigations into marine accidents and incidents

www.gov.uk

My claim was that unless there was a strong Northerly wind at the time in question and the migrants had set off at slack - 1-2 hours, it would be unlikely that a vessel such as this having distress in UK waters would end up back in French waters. Even allowing for a neap/spring effect the tide typically will just take things back and forward with the flow. The migrants tend not to set off in strong northerlies, for obvious reasons, or simply because it results in needing more fuel.

 

[Pat ex]

Why would the UK Marine accident investigation board report on an accident outside the waters of their jurisdiction? They appear to be awaiting the outcome of the French investigation to determine if the vessel was reportedly in distress in UK waters.

You mean they didn't know where it was? Or are they waiting for the French to tell them where it was?

MAIB provide excellent and fair reports fairly quickly with the purpose of learning lessons to avoid loss of life. It normally only takes a few weeks:

Marine Accident Investigation Branch reports

Find reports of MAIB investigations into marine accidents and incidents

www.gov.uk

On this occasion it's taking about 18 months.

My claim was that unless there was a strong Northerly wind at the time in question and the migrants had set off at slack 1-2 hours, it would be unlikely that a vessel such as this having distress in UK waters would end up back in French waters. Even allowing for a neap/spring effect the tide typically will just take things back an forward with the flow. The migrants tend not to set off in strong northerlies, for obvious reasons, or simply because it results in needing to give the migrants more fuel.

So it was in UK waters? Have you told the MAIB?

 

[motorbiking]

No you misunderstand. The vessel was in French waters, the bodies were found in French waters (my bold).

On 24 November 2021, an inflatable dinghy, carrying 30 migrants across the English Channel from France to the UK, capsized whilst still in French territorial waters near Calais and Dunkirk.[5][6][7]Twenty-seven people were found dead, while two others survived and were rescued, and another is still missing.[8][9] Sixteen of the victims were identified as Kurdish people from Iraqi Kurdistan, including ten men, four women and two children; four more were Afghan men, three Ethiopians, one Kurdish man from Iran, a Somali woman, one Vietnamese man, and an Egyptian man.[10][11]Four suspected smugglers were arrested shortly after.[5][12]

A Dover-based fisherman described to The Telegraph how he thought French vessels did not respond to Mayday calls from the French coastguard to attend the incident in French waters about 7 miles (11 km) off Calais. He said that the alarm was raised at about 1 pm and that there were about 15-20 large French fishing vessels off Calais at the time which did not respond. On the other hand, boats from HM Coastguard at Dover and the British Border Force's vessel BF Hurricane arrived on scene around 45 minutes later.[13] A report in Le Monde suggested that the alarm was raised by a French fishing boat and that the stricken dinghy, although in French waters, was not far from being in English waters.[14]

The French authority responsible for overseeing the French side of the English Channel where the incident occurred said that a British helicopter from the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre in Dover had joined a French naval helicopter and patrol vessel, a police boat and a lifeboat to search for survivors and to recover bodies.[13]

On 28 November, one of the two survivors was reported by Rudaw to have said that after their boat began to deflate they called the French authorities for help, but were told they were in British waters, so they called British authorities, but no one came to help.[15][16] This was confirmed by the numerous records of the telephone calls and the testimonies of the victims' relatives[14] and in November 2022, by elements from the French official enquiry.[17][18]

The UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency said that on 24 November they had received "more than 90 alerts, including 999 emergency calls, from the English Channel" and had responded to all of the calls.[19]

November 2021 English Channel disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[diy_fun_uk]

We brought first world civilisation to many previously hopeless, basket-case countries.

When you pay more for everything it's because there's more and more spongers coming here with nothing.

Your first point, it depends how you want to view/frame it. It can equally be argued 'the white man' imposed his thoughts and beliefs on various countries. For example:

National Apology

2008: National Apology to the Stolen Generations

www.nma.gov.au

Now of course depending on your view, you can argue 'rubbish, the indigenous population should be thankful for what the white man did!' Equally you can argue 'it's a disgrace, their land forcibly taken from them, forced to assimilate into a different culture.'

On your second point, you're at best misinformed. We're paying more for goods/services because of all the spongers? Silly me, I thought it was related to a national, EU and global financial and supply chain problem that's led to the worst recession we've seen in decades. Not helped by covid and then the war in Ukraine. And to think, all along the issue is simply down to the spongers.

 

[Pat ex]

No you misunderstand. The vessel was in French waters, the bodies were found in French waters (my bold).

November 2021 English Channel disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyone can create and edit a wikipedia entry.

• This page was last edited on 16 November 2022, at 10:43 (UTC).

It doesn't say who last edited it.

The investigation is still ongoing.
We only have patchy reports that the boat was in French waters.
And bodies in water, and deflated boats would be subject more to tides and currents than wind.

One would need to be an expert on the tides and currents in that are to give a fairly accurate approximation of where the boat/bodies would have drifted.

One peculiar feature of the tides in the central part of the English Channel is the distortion of tidal curves due to the effect of shallow water.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/194342/OES_A3d_Water.pdf

 

[motorbiking]

No you don't need to be an expert, Its all covered in RYA day skipper. All nautical charts give tidal flow and direction for a given tide (neaps or springs) you then calculate the flow using a tidal curve for each hour and work out the speed and direction of tide for the given hour according to the chart data. I'm a commercial yacht master offshore, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but even I can work out the tidal effect based on the historic data. I prefer to cheat and use an app, but its all doable with a pencil and paper.
Weather: Southerly F7-F8
Time of departure around 11AM assuming they struggled for a while. (HW-1) dover reference. Course to steer around 290 degrees
approximate speed 5-6kts + the benefit of around 1kt of tide assistance and a bit of help from the wind.
Wave height 1.5M and this (my guess) probably caused the vessel to be turned over by a stern wave.

Its therefore very difficult to believe they ever made it to UK waters. They were barely halfway across French territorial waters. Everything was pushing them towards the UK at the time they got in difficulty.

 

[Pat ex]

No you don't need to be an expert, Its all covered in RYA day skipper. All nautical charts give tidal flow and direction for a given tide (neaps or springs) you then calculate the flow using a tidal curve for each hour and work out the speed and direction of tide for the given hour according to the chart data. I'm a commercial yacht master offshore, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but even I can work out the tidal effect based on the historic data. I prefer to cheat and use an app, but its all doable with a pencil and paper.
Weather: Southerly F7-F8
Time of departure around 11AM. (HW-1) dover reference. Course to steer around 290 degrees
approximate speed 5-6kts + the benefit of around 1kt of tide assistance and a bit of help from the wind.

Its therefore very difficult to believe they ever made it to UK waters. They were barely halfway across French territorial waters. Everything was pushing them towards the UK at the time they got in difficulty.

You were aware of where they started, and what time, and at what speed?
I'll await the investigation conclusion.

But the overriding issue is: 12 months on and there's still no sign of UK providing safe and legal routes for what has become obviously an unstoppable event.