How to choose someone for EICR testing? (and trust issues)

I can see the likely problems with 3 x 32 plus a 6 amp so can draw a 100 amp, but the main isolator is rated 60 amp, I see nothing on the fuse to give size, if only a 60 amp fuse maybe OK, and can't read size of RCD, it is basic the same as my old house.

Your lucky he did not do the EICR and charge for a failure, but basic point is any EICR is the inspectors opinion.

As to lights
Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
It is hard to fit down lights 0.5 meters from beams, in real terms with LED lights there is no problem, but it does not allow for that in my copy of BS 7671:2008, I would hope that has now changed, but would need holders which will not take quartz halogen bulbs, and they are a pain as the lamps with the L2 dimple are rare and expensive.

But it is up to the inspector, can't say he's wrong.
 
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I can see the likely problems with 3 x 32 plus a 6 amp so can draw a 100 amp, but the main isolator is rated 60 amp,
As I sit here, the CU closest to me (shortest distance to walk to check :) ) has 4 x 32A and 4 x 6A MCBs and 1 x 16A RCBO (hence an 'add-up total' of 168A) (and one currently unused 'spare way', occupied by a B32 - which, if ever used, would bring that 'add-up total' to exactly 200A), with a Main Switch rated at 100A.

Are you suggesting that I should be (perhaps 'very'!) worried about this?.

Kind Regards, John
 
Are you suggesting that I should be (perhaps 'very'!) worried about this?.
No as the DNO very use over a 100 amp fuse, a modern consumer unit is rated 100 amp, think 125 amp is the limit to be called a consumer unit rather than distribution board, but the old Wylex the isolator is rated at 60 amp,
Wylex 60 amp.jpg
so DNO fuse should be 60 amp, it is in my house, as I did have an old Wylex fuse box when I moved in. The DNO should not fit over a 60 amp fuse, but that writing can't be seen normally, so unless the DNO guy is of our age, he may be unaware that 60 amp is the maximum he can fit.

We have the same problem with RCD's, using a 63 amp RCD feeding 4 x 32 amp MCB's is OK on a 60 amp supply, but not with a 100 amp supply. With a 100 amp supply the MCB's must not exceed 63 amp total.

OK we can use some common sense, and where we know it is very unlikely that all circuits will ever be loaded to maximum, we can decide as inspectors there is no potential danger, however we can't really say another inspector is wrong to consider is as a potential danger, he is signing the EICR and it is his right to decide.

I know one chap who decided that it was highly unlikely that a fire would trap people into a building while waiting for the fire alarm people to fix the alarm, and allowed the market to go ahead, and likely he was right, but he lost his job as a result, so I can understand why people are jobs worth, as it can be exactly that.

Yes if my own house I would be in no hurry to correct, in fact it took me around 6 to 9 months before I replaced the consumer unit and fuse box in my own house for an all RCBO consumer unit. However it is a rental property, and I can understand why so many landlords are moving from bricks and mortar to mobile homes, where the rules are not quite so strict.

Bricks and mortar rented property is getting very hard to find around here, loads of mobile home parks, but not bricks and mortar.
 
No as the DNO very use over a 100 amp fuse, a modern consumer unit is rated 100 amp, think 125 amp is the limit to be called a consumer unit rather than distribution board, but the old Wylex the isolator is rated at 60 amp, so DNO fuse should be 60 amp, i
I think you have far too much faith in fuses. A 60A DNO fuse will allow 100A to flow for about an hour and, I think, 200A to flow for something like 30 seconds.

What you seem to be overlooking is common sense (known officially as 'diversity'), which recognises that it is 'extremely unlikley' (in reality, 'will never happen'!) that all circuits in a CU will be loaded to the full extent of their OPD's ratings simultaneously - such that the 'add-up total' (of OPD ratings) is not an appropriate indicator of the actual real-world 'maximum load'.

The CU of mine which I mentioned serves just one floor (the ground floor, so not even a shower) of my house. Although the ratings of its MCBs add up to 168A, there is obviously no way that I would ever load it to that extent (even if I could find "168A worth" of loads to apply to the circuit!).

The way we supply sockets via "sockets circuits" is a recognition of this diversity. The 5 sockets circuits in the CU I mentioned serve at least 60 'socket outlets' (at least 30 double sockets). Daft though it would be, rather than having those 5 'sockets circuits', I could have 60 single sockets each on a dedicated 16A radial circuit - which would 'add up' to a total of 960A - yet the actual load I would apply via those sockets would be no different than it currently is. In other words, the way in which we arrange sockets in circuits, and hence the 'add-up total' of the circuits' OPD ratings, is essentially arbitrary (albeit hopefully based on common sense).

Kind Regards, John
 
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What work was that quote for?

What would you expect? Even in terms of just 'supply', that only equates to £15 per light.

Someone will probably suggest that there is something 'wrong' (inappropriate for the purpose) with the lights if you need 12 of them to light one room :)

I doubt that is true - but, without having seen them, I obviously cannot be sure.

Kind Regards, John
fitting TWO SMALL RCBO CONSUMER
UNITS AND REMOVAL OF BS 3036 OLD
FUSE BAORDS.

Can see in the photo MCBs were set up for 2 seperate flats and until last year there were actually 2 electricity meters.
He was saying other stuff was wong about the MCBS too i forgot.
 
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What work was that quote for?

What would you expect? Even in terms of just 'supply', that only equates to £15 per light.

Someone will probably suggest that there is something 'wrong' (inappropriate for the purpose) with the lights if you need 12 of them to light one room :)

I doubt that is true - but, without having seen them, I obviously cannot be sure.

Kind Regards, John
Ill have to pull the light out and read the back of it? These lights could be like 20 years old. is a weird situation where a perfectly rentable house was empty for 20 years. I stupidly told him this, altohugh I said Im screwed by IHT, maybe I got some got dodgy response due to that.
 
I think you have far too much faith in fuses. A 60A DNO fuse will allow 100A to flow for about an hour and, I think, 200A to flow for something like 30 seconds.
I've always understood it that electrical components are designed to work together as a system based on their current ratings, that is if I take a 60A isolator and protect it with a 60A fuse while I can't expect the fuse to blow the instant the load goes over 60A, I can reasonably expect that the fuse will blow before the isolator comes to significant harm but that if I take that same 60A isolator and protect it with a 100A fuse I can have no such expectations.

What you seem to be overlooking is common sense (known officially as 'diversity'), which recognises that it is 'extremely unlikley' (in reality, 'will never happen'!) that all circuits in a CU will be loaded to the full extent of their OPD's ratings simultaneously
As Eric says, the question is how far does one go in deeming things "unlikely". Is it reasonable to rely on diversity calculations alone to say that something will not be overloaded or should there be overload protection in place in case the assumptions behind those calculations turn out to be wrong.

It's commercial rather than domestic, but i'm reminded of the hair styling competition that was mentioned on here a while back. The people running it were woefully underprepared and thought they could just power everything from the normal general use sockets in the building. In that case someone overheard the conversation and convinced them to hire an expert but that sort of thing is part of the reason why we have overload protection, people will from time to time do dumb **** that could not reasonablly be anticipated.
 
I've always understood it that electrical components are designed to work together as a system based on their current ratings, that is if I take a 60A isolator and protect it with a 60A fuse while I can't expect the fuse to blow the instant the load goes over 60A, I can reasonably expect that the fuse will blow before the isolator comes to significant harm ....
That is certainly true of cables within an electrical installation - i.e. the figures tabulated for the "CCC" of such cables are such that (given the characteristics of OPDs) it is deemed that the cables will come to no harm if 1.45 times that 'tabulated CCC' flows for an hour. However, I am far from convinced that similar margins are built into the stated "maximum current ratings" of components such as switches. - does anyone know?
As Eric says, the question is how far does one go in deeming things "unlikely". Is it reasonable to rely on diversity calculations alone to say that something will not be overloaded or should there be overload protection in place in case the assumptions behind those calculations turn out to be wrong.
It obviously is not an exact science (or even 'art'!) and it is also true that "little is impossible" - so, as you say, it reduces to a probabilistic judgement as to what is "unlikely". In that regard, all I can say is that I would think that one thing which is (probably 'incredibly') unlikely is that a DNO fuse (of any rating) will blow as a result of an overload (as opposed to a 'fault'), no matter what the 'ratings' of components within the installation - and, if that's true (I have not personally experienced, nor known of, an occasion on which a DNO fuse has blown as the result of overload), then the discussion becomes rather moot.

What is seemingly a little ironic is that, per my extreme example, the more one splits one's sockets across many circuits (to reduce the loading on any one circuit) the greater will become the 'add-up total' of OPD ratings, even though one's actual total current draw will not change!
It's commercial rather than domestic, but i'm reminded of the hair styling competition that was mentioned on here a while back. The people running it were woefully underprepared and thought they could just power everything from the normal general use sockets in the building. ....
Indeed, but this is a DIY forum, and my comments therefore related to domestic installations.

Kind Regards, John
 
Ill have to pull the light out and read the back of it? These lights could be like 20 years old. is a weird situation where a perfectly rentable house was empty for 20 years. I stupidly told him this, altohugh I said Im screwed by IHT, maybe I got some got dodgy response due to that.
But as if a light is dangerous just becasue of the age, sounds like flat out lying,
 
But as if a light is dangerous just becasue of the age, sounds like flat out lying,
It would be. An aged electrical item may be (or may now be regarded as being) 'unsafe' (for specific reasons), but it is simply not true that something is necessarily unsafe purely 'because of its age".

Kind Regards, John
 
Even if your current setup did get a favourable EICR (ie no C2 or C1), for a rental risk management says you'd be unwise not having RCD protection on the power circuits at least and ideally on everything. They can prevent the tenants injuring themselves by plugging in some shoddy appliance they own.
 
That seems eminently reasonable, not technically difficult for a sparkie but time consuming. Failing downlights does however seem to be the bread and butter of a lot of sparkies.

Blup
 
In theory if an installation was OK in 1970, and nothing has changed or degraded, then it is still OK today, the wiring regulations all refer to the design date.

However it is highly unlikely that the design has not changed. The simple thing is we no longer use tungsten lights, so we now have bulbs which can be changed while still powered up, as the temperature now allows us to handle them.

So if we take it to the extreme, if an inspector sees a EV parked outside, should he assume it is going to be charged from the 13 amp sockets, which will need therefore type B RCD protection etc?

I would say no, but point is if an inspector was to give a code C2 due to RCD type, we can't say he is wrong, we have the best practice guide, but it is only a guide, the only way to get a decision reversed is to go to the LABC or trading standards, there has been one case, but the electrician held up his hands and admitted he did not do a good inspection, had he held out, not sure what the court would have done.

I was myself worried about the result of missing faults, and I wrote a java script program to calculate volt drop, however realised the volt drop would need to be way out before an error could be proved. But the question is still valid in a way, if I miss a fault, and in 5 years time another tester finds a fault, which now requires a tiled floor to be lifted to correct, can the owner claim on me for missing the fault before the tiles were laid?

The simple watch my back method is to find fault, not really ethical, but if you find fault, some one has to repair the fault, and issue a installation or minor works certificate which post dates the EICR so I am in the clear.

I have watched videos of electricians removing all the down lights to check earth wires are present. And they are not too close to beams. This is not inspecting the condition of the installation, this is looking for installation errors. However in theory the installation and minors works plus previous EICR should be made available to the inspector. In commercial premises this actually happens, but my last house I had from new, built around 1978, and I was not given the installation certificate, it should have had one even back then, but until 1992 when the regulations became BS 7671 it was rare for any electrical paperwork to be raised for domestic electrics, and it was not until 2004 with the Part P it became essential to raise the paperwork.

And when my mother put the paperwork where I could not find it, I found getting a replacement from the LABC was near impossible, told would take 4 months, and would cost whatever time it took a worker to find it. So much for traceable records.

I had the same problem with calibration of a PAT tester, it turned out they could not trace the traceable records, and if I want to buy a house, I would want the paperwork to come direct from person doing the inspection, not vie the last owners who could miss out pages etc. I was caught out with this house, presented with the installation certificate, only to find it only covered less than a 1/3 of the house.

I have wondered what an inspector would do if I wanted to rent out the main house? It does not have a distribution unit of any kind in the house, that's in the flat below it. He has two options, either LIM or FI, unless he has assess to flat. He could turn power off, simply using the RCD tester would do that, but he could not turn it back on.

So the cover could be completely missing for the consumer unit, but that would be outside of his remit. The same often applies to commercial premises, even as the electrical engineer, I was not given assess to the step down transformer room, which I know had exposed wiring and did not comply with BS 7671 but did not need to, as under the control of the DNO.
 
Unknown why the meter has been located so far away from everything else.
It's a prepay meter. Guess it was lowered for ease of access.

If the OP decides to update the boards, it might be worth considering moving those down, too.

Edit: oops, smart meter, not prepay.

Guess it was lowered for ease of access to the display and buttons?
 
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