Responsibility of electrical intake equipment in flats

[dave_104]

Hi

In a small block of flats our tenants need the teleswitch and meter replacing as they're on storage heaters and the teleswitch service will be discontinued soon, so their only option would seem to be a smart meter to replace both items. I would have preferred them to get a dual tariff non-smart digital meter but I guess that'll be a hard thing for them to argue out with their electrical supplier.
When arriving to install the smart meter, Octopus have said there's damage to the large cast box at the bottom where the supply comes in (top right corner is cracked - shown in picture). So I asked UK Power to come and replace it but they say it's not their responsibility. (Octopus have put warning tape on the box but are also not claiming responsibility of the item). The building management company are passing the buck too and suggesting I need a regular electrician to replace that box. (I would just tap the corner back in with a hammer, but I can't expect the tenants to do that!).
The cut-out fuse is in a cabinet outside, which also has the fuses for several other flats. I read that it's the "BNO" - Building Network Operator who should be the one to replace the box. Does that sound right? and who on earth are the BNO and who should be the one that makes contact with them?
Also, why the copper pipe coming in? has someone used 10/15mm copper pipe as conduit?

Thanks
Dave

 

[Murdochcat]

In such cases IIRC the DNO is responsible up to the incoming head in the block. The supplier is responsible for the meter

So it’s a cost to be taken by the free holder IMHO - I would confirm with the management company that they will pay if you arrange

It’s not copper pipe - it’s MICC cable

 

[ericmark]

As far as I can make out, you can refuse a smart meter, but also the supplier can refuse to offer off-peak, so in real terms, if you want off-peak, then must have a smart meter.

It seems odd, there is no seal on the box before the meter, an electrician can't change it, not allowed to touch stuff before the meter.

Seem to remember @flameport explaining who does this, maybe he can help you.

 

[dave_104]

Thanks guys. I was slightly wrong about the box being cast, I believe it's folded steel and the issue is where the tails exit that the side is bent in slightly causing the corner joint to separate. I honestly don't know why Octopus smart meter people think that's a problem - unless there's a gaping hole that I cannot see in the photo greater than 12.5mm for the test finger? (I might be completely wrong on that assumption as 12.5mm seems way too big and I thought the enclosure protection regs were intended to safeguard against kids poking paperclips etc inside electrical items - and in which case entry by the grommet would be easier).

 

[JohnW2]

As far as I can make out, you can refuse a smart meter ...

Many/most people seem to say and believe that. However, as I always say, although I can't find the Supply Agreement that I'm deemed to have signed, I am all-but-certain that my implicit signature gave the supplier the right to install whatever 'metering or other equipment' that they saw fit as part of providing my electricity supply - without my having any 'right of veto'.

 

[EFLImpudence]

You might have signed an agreement for specific rates for which a smart meter is necessary but smart meters are not yet compulsory in the UK.

Did people have to sign agreements in the old days when there were no special conditions; i.e. when there was just a meter to measure usage?

 

[JohnW2]

Did people have to sign agreements in the old days when there were no special conditions; i.e. when there was just a meter to measure usage?

Yes they did - but, as I wrote, one has apparently always been deemed to have signed them if one uses their electricity, even if one has not literally signed (or necessarily even seen!) the Agreement.

Furthermore, as I've just written, I'm all but certain that the Agreement I am deemed to have signed included 'agreement' that the supplier could install any metering etc. equipment which took their fancy within my property.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes they did - but, as I wrote, one has apparently always been deemed to have signed them if one uses their electricity, even if one has not literally signed (or necessarily even seen!) the Agreement.

Then the legal term "unreasonable" springs to mind.

Furthermore, as I've just written, I'm all but certain that the Agreement I am deemed to have signed included 'agreement' that the supplier could install any metering etc. equipment which took their fancy within my property.

Perhaps it did not.

 

[crystal ball]

When I worked for NORWEB in the the 80s, we spent a summer renewing sub mains in flats, similar set up to this, they were the responsibility of said board. Mind you the electrical world has turned on its head since then

 

[JohnW2]

Then the legal term "unreasonable" springs to mind.

Who knows, but I'm not so sure about that. There are many situations in which one is deemed to have accepted Ts&Cs by using some service, and I presume that is legally regarded as 'reasonable'?

 

[JohnW2]

Who knows, but I'm not so sure about that. There are many situations in which one is deemed to have accepted Ts&Cs by using some service, and I presume that is legally regarded as 'reasonable'?

Found one of my service agreements ....

3.5 You may be on a deemed contract, which means that ... you are on a contract that you have not actively agreed with us, but exists between you and us automatically because you are taking a supply

and, regarding what I previously suggested ...

6.5 We are allowed to install, maintain, read, disconnect, repair or replace any metering equipment.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Why did you opt for North Korea Power Networks?



You're the one whose daughter is a barrister.

Meanwhile why not just search for "Are smart meters compulsory in the UK?"

 

[flameport]

I read that it's the "BNO" - Building Network Operator who should be the one to replace the box.

Technically that's correct, however they probably don't exist.
When it was installed decades ago it would have all been the electricity board for the area, but today it's all been separated out, and the mythical BNO for the parts between the incoming supply and the meter simply doesn't exist in many cases.
It will ultimately end up with the building owner, but they may have no knowledge or info about it, and are probably unaware it's anything to do with them.
Some DNOs will still help with replacement of such equipment, but that is evidently not the case here.
Octopus or any other metering company certainly will be of no help at all, as none of it is their responsibility and never was.

it's folded steel and the issue is where the tails exit that the side is bent in slightly causing the corner joint to separate. I honestly don't know why Octopus smart meter people think that's a problem -

The real problem is that there is no local cutout to isolate the supply while they replace the meter. The slightly damaged box is an easy excuse to use.

Also, why the copper pipe coming in?

Mineral insulated cable as already stated in reply #2, and it's very fortunate that it's been done like that - cable is probably good for 100 years or more and almost certainly will not need to be replaced now or ever.

Remedial work there would be to remove the painted steel box and the phenolic connector block inside it, and replace with a new steel enclosure or trunking with connectors inside, existing MICC cable gland retained and fixed into the new enclosure, then add a red link cutout to the right side, leaving the space above for whatever metering equipment is required.
Appears to be a separate earth conductor with it, or that may be bonding, either way all would need to be checked and replaced/repaired if necessary.

If there are other flats with the same arrangement they should all be done at the same time.
Paid via the building owner/management co, and recharged to the individual apartments as part of the annual service/maintenance charges.

The plastic phone socket also needs to go, and should never have been put in there at all.

 

[JohnW2]

Why did you opt for North Korea Power Networks?

As I think I've said in the past, over the years/decades I've seen a good few of these Agreements and all have said essentially the same.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the 'deemed contract' or the "allowed to install ... any metering equipment". If the former, see below. As for the latter, it would be pretty ridiculous if householders were able to dictate which items of metering equipment a supplier was, or was not, 'allowed' to install - and 'smart' meters are just a particular example of items of equipment that a supplier might wish to install.

You're the one whose daughter is a barrister.

Indeed. I've asked her about this in the past, and she confirms that the concept of a 'deemed contract' is quite common and acceptable and that, in relation to the supply of electricity or gas (and various other things), is specifically provided for in legislation.

Meanwhile why not just search for "Are smart meters compulsory in the UK?"

I know. That's why I wrote:

Many/most people seem to say and believe that.

However, as you know, the fact that many/most people believe something doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct or true.

Just in the context of things electrical .... many people believe that only pull switches are permitted in bathrooms, that fans (and many other things) must have local isolators, that it's not permitted to have 4mm² unfused spurs from ring finals supplying multiple sockets etc. etc.

In return for your suggestion, why do you not just search for "Deemed contracts" ??

 

[SUNRAY]

Hi

In a small block of flats our tenants need the teleswitch and meter replacing as they're on storage heaters and the teleswitch service will be discontinued soon, so their only option would seem to be a smart meter to replace both items. I would have preferred them to get a dual tariff non-smart digital meter but I guess that'll be a hard thing for them to argue out with their electrical supplier.
When arriving to install the smart meter, Octopus have said there's damage to the large cast box at the bottom where the supply comes in (top right corner is cracked - shown in picture). So I asked UK Power to come and replace it but they say it's not their responsibility. (Octopus have put warning tape on the box but are also not claiming responsibility of the item). The building management company are passing the buck too and suggesting I need a regular electrician to replace that box. (I would just tap the corner back in with a hammer, but I can't expect the tenants to do that!).
The cut-out fuse is in a cabinet outside, which also has the fuses for several other flats. I read that it's the "BNO" - Building Network Operator who should be the one to replace the box. Does that sound right? and who on earth are the BNO and who should be the one that makes contact with them?
Also, why the copper pipe coming in? has someone used 10/15mm copper pipe as conduit?

Thanks
Dave

AFAIC this is just a miserable excuse by an incompetent meter installer.