Can I add an EV charger for a PHEV to this CU

[robinbanks]

But multiple ones OUTSIDE make the house look multiply ugly

A walk down any street you care to think of will highly likely find multiple things more ugly (in my opinion) than an electrical socket, but I note your opinion

You are playing straight into the hands of all the conspiracy loony EV haters

i didn't really understand your point; I'm in favour of EVs, and my arguments in favour of them in terms of doing things like trading the energy in the battery to make a profit/accepting that cars don't move for most of the time and that is ideal for charging, simply don't apply to petrol. Once you can get someone out of "I have to be able to fill up my EV as fast as I can fill up my petrol, because that's the only way I know to refuel a car" mode thinking, more possibilities open up

EV allow for relatively trouble free, low cost transport, especially if you have on site generation. Very few people have fossil fuel production on site, and if they're pro-petrol they focus on other things they see as downsides, things for which there are solutions but "there is none so blind as he who will not see"

Still - you don't think people should have more than a 7kW facility, so that's all that matters, who cares what they might want?

So thought you were arguing for keeping things simple. Simply put, a 7kW charger will more than cover most people's charging needs. If they drive a lot for a living, such that they really do flatten their huge(ly expensive) battery daily and need it full, they're probably also the sort of people who would just upgrade their supply and plump for a 3 phase option?

sort of level of revenue from vehicle users, those with EVs are probably in for a pretty big shock

Declaring that the sunlight streaming the through the air belongs to the government so they can tax solar panel output, that sort of thing?

Did happen with diesel tbf..

we forbid the availability of any products which not everybody can use?

If we're going from the sublime to some form of ridiculous, why not go all the way to forbidding products that not everybody can afford?

 

[ericmark]

EV users are, of course, currently enjoying a honeymoon. Sooner or later, government is going to have to do something to replace the massive revenue income they currently have from fuel excise duty. It's currently about 53p per litre, so maybe £25-£30 for each fill-up with petrol/diesel - and when government decide on a way of maintaining that sort of level of revenue from vehicle users, those with EVs are probably in for a pretty big shock

Same has happened with Solar panels, early take up got a guaranteed payment I was going to say for export, but it did not matter if exported or not, they still got paid. But the price of electricity has gone up, and payment is now no longer more than one paid for import.

We have seen the cost of electric for EV charging drop to a record low, around 7p/kWh if you allow the energy company to decide when the EV is charged, but for non EV even with batteries, the rates are higher, around 8.5p/kWh if you lie and say you have an EV, but 17.1p/kWh if you admit you only have solar and batteries, and as for Economy 7, that varies a lot, I see around 15p/kWh lowest 7.72p/kWh and highest 20.59p/kWh, but it can result in 38.82p/kWh for peak supplies, and the Octopus Flux (for solar panels and batteries) peak rate is 39.9p/kWh.

This in real terms means no one knows what an EV will cost to run, or what solar panels will save, and with EV's we are seeing people lease rather than buy the car, and the main reason for the take up is the tax concessions which go with it. Which can all change at the drop of a hat. They have even needed to change the driving licence rules, to allow people to drive the heavier cars. But personally I have seen a reduction on my UK licence to what I can drive, although my British licence will still allow me to drive so heavy stuff if I have been out of the country in last 12 months.

But I look at next door to me daughter, and see the EV charging point, no EV any more, seems he changed jobs, I wonder if he rang up the energy supplier and said I don't have an EV any more, what tariff can I have now?

My wife got a Jaguar, and it had the option of remote control, warm up the engine while sitting in drive, so you leave the house in winter with a clear screen and warm car etc. We did not really want that option, but unless we took it up, the previous owner could possibly start our car, so we took it up, but did not renew it.

So with the EV, when you have given the supplier permission to charge and discharge the car remotely, what can they do when not connected to the home supply? Not suggesting a malicious act, but we seem to be relying on manufacturers and suppliers toeing the line, my own solar panels connect to a server in China, don't need guns and bombs to fight a war any more.

 

[SUNRAY]

EV users are, of course, currently enjoying a honeymoon. Sooner or later, government is going to have to do something to replace the massive revenue income they currently have from fuel excise duty. It's currently about 53p per litre, so maybe £25-£30 for each fill-up with petrol/diesel - and when government decide on a way of maintaining that sort of level of revenue from vehicle users, those with EVs are probably in for a pretty big shock

This is probaly the most sensible comment of the thread, Kinda reminds me of the governments drive (excuse unintended pun) to buy diesel powered vehicles to reduce the petrol emissions and as soon as the trend reached a suitable point they slapped a huge increase on diesel tax and to really add salt to the wound slapped an even bigger road fund license on diesel cars.

As you point out this huge but failing revenue generator will have to be refuelled from somewhere.

 

[blup]

Decent electric cars do all of that for you. No planning required other than providing a destination.
For those cars which do not, there are various free apps to do the same.
Even without such things, it's not exactly difficult to consider stopping somewhere on that long journey, and most people would be doing that anyway.

The app logic is unchallengeable as you argue it, but I know there will be a pump available at the fuel station and I don’t need to take War and Peace with me. The chief disadvantage with electric is that you have to build in significant extra time when away from the home charger

There have been problems in the past, but all public DC charging can be paid for using any contactless card - a legal requirement since November 2024. Most had contactless payment well before that, as the requirements applied from November 2023 with up to a year to comply.
Apps and other payment methods still exist but are optional.

My experience is completely the opposite, all four of the different public chargers required an app. Shell would even let you start until you had proved identity by sending electronic proof, followed by a week for the charge card to be sent. That’s a long time to wait to “fill up”.

There really isn't - even in places such as northern Scotland or central Wales where there are very few, worst case is the nearest DC charging facility could be 20 miles away.
However if driving through such places, any sensible person would ensure they had sufficient charge to reach the next location - just as they would with a petrol vehicle.

It’s an anxiety for some, if not a reality. Factoring in a two hour stop on a long hour, maybe several, adds a lot to an already long one..

For everywhere else even in rural areas it would be difficult to get more than about 10 miles from a charging facility. In urban areas they are numerous with dozens to choose from within just a few miles.

If it’s working, available and you have the time. That is the advantage of the phev to me, electric for round town/shorter journeys, all topped up with a home charger, and petrol for the longer journeys. I can absolutely see the benefits of full electric when ranges go up to 6/700 miles, as with the better diesels, and super fast charging is much more widely available, just not for me at present

 

[JohnW2]

Declaring that the sunlight streaming the through the air belongs to the government so they can tax solar panel output, that sort of thing?

As I presume you understand, my comment was a purely pragmatic. The Office for Budget Responsibility currently reports:

Fuel duties are levied on purchases of petrol, diesel and a variety of other fuels. They represent a significant source of revenue for government. In 2025-26, we expect fuel duties to raise £24.4 billion. That would represent 2.0 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to £850 per household and 0.8 per cent of national income.

... and, of course, the government also collects VAT on that duty (as well as on the fuel cost itself). In addition Vehicle Excise Duty ("Road Tax"), from which EVs are currently exempt, generates another approx £7.8 billion per year.

Admittedly, some of the fuel duty income relates to use of fuels other than for vehicles but, nevertheless the current government income from users of non-electric vehicles is enormous by anyone's standards - but unless something changes, that revenue will all disappear over the next few decades.

That shortfall of revenue will obviously have to be made up from somewhere. I would suggest that the most obvious (and 'fair'?) approach would be to continue to get it from the users of vehicles.

What alternatives would you prefer? The government could try to get the required massive amount of money from pensioners or farmers. It could substantially increase the rates of Income Tax or VAT, abolish the police force or fire service or close a few dozen NHS hospitals etc. etc. - but none of those approaches would be likely to go down very well

There is no apparent justification for the exemption of EVs from road tax (other than to encourage people to switch to EVs), so I imagine that exemption will probably die fairly soon. However, as for 'fuel', EV users are currently paying no more for the electricity they use for their EV than they pay for the electricity they use for any other purpose, and they are even enjoying a low VAT rate on that. None of that seems very logical 'fair' (or sensible, from government's point-of-view).

 

[morqthana]

i didn't really understand your point; I'm in favour of EVs, and my arguments in favour of them in terms of doing things like trading the energy in the battery to make a profit/accepting that cars don't move for most of the time and that is ideal for charging, simply don't apply to petrol. Once you can get someone out of "I have to be able to fill up my EV as fast as I can fill up my petrol, because that's the only way I know to refuel a car" mode thinking, more possibilities open up

EV allow for relatively trouble free, low cost transport, especially if you have on site generation. Very few people have fossil fuel production on site, and if they're pro-petrol they focus on other things they see as downsides, things for which there are solutions but "there is none so blind as he who will not see"

I agree with all of that.

But you said "It's the behaviour that needs to change if the physics cant", and telling people that they have to change their behaviour will play into the hands of the conspiracy nutjobs who already see EVs as a tool which will allow the government to restrict when and where people may drive.

And the "physics" doesn't need to change, we just need to stop preventing people who want one from having an IEC 61851-1 Mode 3 system which charges at 63A on a single-phase supply

I know that not everybody could have that because of the lack of capacity in the supply to their house. Not everybody can have a 7kW system because of a lack of offstreet parking capacity at their house, but we don't therefore prevent people who do have it from having a chargepoint.

So thought you were arguing for keeping things simple. Simply put, a 7kW charger will more than cover most people's charging needs. If they drive a lot for a living, such that they really do flatten their huge(ly expensive) battery daily and need it full, they're probably also the sort of people who would just upgrade their supply and plump for a 3 phase option?

They might.

If they did, should they be prevented from having an IEC 61851-1 Mode s option supporting 40+kW charging, and only allowed Mode 2 22kW?

If we're going from the sublime to some form of ridiculous, why not go all the way to forbidding products that not everybody can afford?

It was not I who suggested that Mode 3 chargepoints should not be available because not everybody can benefit from one.

 

[Rodders53]

In addition Vehicle Excise Duty ("Road Tax"), from which EVs are currently exempt, generates another approx £7.8 billion per year.

There is no apparent justification for the exemption of EVs from road tax (other than to encourage people to switch to EVs), so I imagine that exemption will probably die fairly soon.

Where have you been hiding away from the News? EV VED is £195 same as many other vehicles as of 1st April 2025.

New VEDS are also now subject to the over £40k supplements (if applicable).

There were an awful lot of VED renewals by EV users in March at the £0 rate.

 

[SUNRAY]

Where have you been hiding away from the News? EV VED is £195 same as many other vehicles as of 1st April 2025.

New VEDS are also now subject to the over £40k supplements (if applicable).

There were an awful lot of VED renewals by EV users in March at the £0 rate.

Is that on all EVs?

 

[SUNRAY]

Is that on all EVs?

Fancy asking, all is clear here:

Vehicle tax for electric, zero and low emission vehicles

How the Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) changes affect your vehicle.

www.gov.uk

 

[flameport]

but I know there will be a pump available at the fuel station

Except when it's out of order
or there is no fuel left
or the fuel station is closed.

Factoring in a two hour stop

Most EVs will rapid charge in 15-20 minutes. Some of the newest ones even less.
Even my van which is very far from optimal and has what is now considered very poor charging speeds on DC only takes 40 minutes.

ranges go up to 6/700 miles

Yes, that mythical journey of 600+ miles where people regularly do the 12+ hour drive from Exeter to Inverness without stopping.

and super fast charging is much more widely available

This is the map of DC charging at 50kW and above, and this shows locations with DC charging, not individual charging devices. From https://electroverse.com/map
How much more 'available' do you want?

 

[blup]

Except when it's out of order
or there is no fuel left
or the fuel station is closed.

Unlikely

Most EVs will rapid charge in 15-20 minutes. Some of the newest ones even less.
Even my van which is very far from optimal and has what is now considered very poor charging speeds on DC only takes 40 minutes.

Is the UK infrastructure going to cope with fast charging in dwellings?

Yes, that mythical journey of 600+ miles where people regularly do the 12+ hour drive from Exeter to Inverness without stopping.

Not just the journey but the range

This is the map of DC charging at 50kW and above, and this shows locations with DC charging, not individual charging devices. From https://electroverse.com/map
How much more 'available' do you want?

View attachment 383237

Impressive but with significant rural gaps

 

[robinbanks]

a lack of offstreet parking capacity at their house

Another argument I've never held much regard for. Highly likely the wires that carry electricity to the houses pass under where the car is parked, and the assertion that the power must pass through the meter in the car owner's house, before coming back out to the car which must be parked in front of the house, in order to have the right person pay for the power their car consumes is abject nonsense

 

[JohnW2]

Where have you been hiding away from the News?

I have been pretty busy for the past couple of months!

EV VED is £195 same as many other vehicles as of 1st April 2025.

Fair enough. As you correctly quoted, I said that I imagined that the exemption would die "fairly soon" - so I reckon that I wasn't far off the mark in my prediction

 

[JohnW2]

Another argument I've never held much regard for. Highly likely the wires that carry electricity to the houses pass under where the car is parked, and the assertion that the power must pass through the meter in the car owner's house, before coming back out to the car which must be parked in front of the house, in order to have the right person pay for the power their car consumes is abject nonsense

Yes, but only 'abject nonsense' (for the theoretical future) because very large scale infrastructure work could address those current issues. If experiences of 'rolling out 'Smart' meters" are anything to go by, that might take decades and cost a fortune!

 

[morqthana]

my own solar panels connect to a server in China

Why?